Topic: The War in Iraq II

Don't you know what nuclear weapons DO?! Nuclear fallout does not just stay in one country. It does not stop at the boarders. Radiation will travel a very long way. Not only will it affect nearby countries, it will affect countries a long ways away. People will get cancer. CANCER IS BAD. Didn't you ever hear of Cherbonyl? Radiation traveled from eastern Europe in what is now Ukraine all the way to Canada. Imagine what multiple nuclear attacks will do? And modern nuclear weapons made during the Cold War are FAR more potent then the ones dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The people who don't die immediatly in the blast, will die of radiation poisoning shortly afterwards. Those who don't die of radiation poisoning will get cancer, which is BAD. Not only will human life loss will be substantial, ALL animals in the affected areas will die for the same reasons as well. And plants! And the water? Contanomated? And where do the two major rivers in Iraq eventually end up? Thats right, the ocean. Ocean life will be affected as well. And the people who don't die from cancer or radiations? They will be out for our blood. You think the world hates us now? Drop some nukes and see what people say about us after that. THAT is why you are sick.

I don't think he quite grasped the whole concept. What would be sick was if someone knew that and said that everything that suffers deserves it. A misunderstanding (or lack of understanding) should not be filed as "sick".

Again as it has been said here before but nuking them all would be stooping to their level.  What puts us above the cowards is our kindness towards prisoners.  And I say kindness in a loose sense not referring to some treatment but to the fact that they are all alive and fed and have their basic needs taken care of.  Blowing them up is exactly what they want us to do.  There are too many to completely wipe them out and like MH said, they would be viewed as martyrs and their media outlets like Al Jezeera would turn the entire Muslim world against the Western World. 

You may think dropping bombs on them would work because it worked with Japan.  That is a huge mistake.  The Japanese care for their people.  When such widespread damage was caused they realized resisting further would mean even more death for their people.  The Muslim extremists don't care for their innocents going as far as using civilians as shields.  They encourage sectarian violence.  These people would not stop if their country was nuked.  So again please think before you make such wild allegations.

EDIT:  I realize why that felt like deja vu.  Karson had said the same thing earlier on in this topic and I had responded with what I said now.  :P  I suggest you go back and read that.

Omg! I Was Joking The Whole Time Anyways!!!!!!! Lolololol!!!!!!!! Yes< I Know That Is Totally Ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The funny thing is, Tojo declared he was prepared to send the whole country of Japan to the front lines basically in order to keep the fighting going. He didn't really care for the people, but after Fat Man, had no choice to surrender.

Also, in 10th grade, I did a research paper on the Atomic Bomb droppings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. People from over fourteen miles away from either city felt the effects of radiation poisoning. They also had strong winds that blew down houses and destroyed crops.

It certainly didn't sound like a joke. Even if you were, its a terrible subject to joke around with! I'm not laughing, thats for sure.

Me neither...It seems like everything I say in the past year is taken wrong! Even my hero(Yes I know. He's a really good concessions stand manage in his 60's) told the Higher-Ups that he didn't want me to work in his stand anymore. I know it was probably because of something I said that sounded bossy or maybe because I was the unlucky one to make the first mistake of the day!

I dunno. It seems like if all I can do anymore is make mistakes, I don't even have a purpose in life. I CAN"T SAY ANYTHING RIGHT!!!

Just think about what you type in the future. Read it over. Does it sound appropriate? Or is it in bad taste?

I try to read everything at least twice, if not thrice. I still hate my life though.

You're fourteen, right? Everyone at that age hates their life for one reason or another. Its a stage. Very rarely is it not. In a few years it'll be over.

Not everyone hates their life at that age.

I've hated my life since I was ten. I'm not a normal teenager. I don't like music that much, I don't have friends, I don't play sports, I don't play video games, I don't watch TV or go to the movies, I hate driving, and I don't give a rip about fashion or trends. I wear American and German BDU's(Battle Dress Uniform), I like shooting stuffed animals with foam rockets, and I can't stand anyone under the age of about 25.(accept those under 7).

Normal, abnormal, most everyone reaches a "I hate my life" phase before they reach High School. I think puberty and those brand new hormones have something to do with it. Eventually your body will adjust and then you'll go "Oh, life doesn't really suck that much at all". Unless, something really IS wrong with your life.

Well I'm not normal then :P

P.S. Seco - If you thought that this is funny, GTFO.

I never said I think atom bombs are funny! They kill people. It's wrong!

The funny thing is, you ridicule Valthonin and I in the Religion thread for being racist, yet you call the Middle Eastern people "stinking many civilians". Whether you believe it or not, the Middle Eastern people laugh at everyone for their obsession with hygiene, and they actually feel no need to shower or clean themselves as often. Quite smart if you ask me.

I didn't mean it like that! I give up, my life is pointless!

Man, I hated sports as a teen, and still do, I have almost no friends, I don't play any video games, no movies at the theater. I watch the cartoon network almost every waking hour because I relate to cartoons more than "real" life and I'm 38 WTF! I'm 38, when did that happen?

Anyway, please try to look inside yourself and see what is there that is positive and good. It is so f...ing hard to do in this day and age but you need to try. There are probably a bunch of really cool things about yourself that you have never realized.  As for saying stuff you regret...well, there's not a human alive who has not done that a billion times. And if they so otherwise they are not being honest with themselves.

I have screwed up my life sooo many times by saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. I have f...ed up really great paying jobs. I used to work for Ralph Lauren and I made really great money, but, like you, I don't really care that much about fashion and one of my bosses overheard me saying as such one day and the next thing you know I was out the door. I then turned around and did the same damn thing with another fashion company who payed me even more! You would think that at 37 I would have been smart enough not to make the same mistake. It does not matter what age you are. People of all ages are equally capable of saying stupid things.

But relating it back to the topic...I think this shows the frustration facing many of the world's people and why, as I am always harping on in on the evolution thread, it's just not smart to see things in an essentialist way. After reading every post on this topic I think it is really obvious that the discourse over terrorism, religion and nationalism is complex. I know that's an obvious statement but a lot of people in the world view things from a much more simplistic perspective and they think they have it all figured out, again, like on the evolution thread.

War has been a part of human life for as long as, if not before, we have been human. Killing and fighting for one thing or another has always been with us. Early on, not unlike today, the chief purpose for engaging your neighbor was resource control, Then it was a dead mammoth, now it's oil. Is it genetic? I don't know, trying to stay alive is probably genetic though. Today the world is much more complex and modern communication has intensified the process of semiotic confusion. The best example of this is what we do here. With email etc. there is no tone of voice and since we are all still working on paralanguage usage such as lol etc. it is really easy to take things the wrong way and the chance for miscommunication increases as the threads get longer.

I am babbling now...anyway...long-story-short, if we get confused or misrepresent something expressed through an internet message board just think how difficult it is for people who lost a loved-one during 911, or for someone who lost their son during a rocket attack in Israel, to understand the mind of the U.S. president or of Islamic militants. This is a crazy mixed up cruel world we live in so we should all try to be nice to each other. (I know, I know it sounds like a Hallmark!)

I hate to double post but I could not agree more with what Aaron is saying here, not only on this topic but when dealing with anything of a sensitive or complex nature.

yeah. thanks. friend. :)

Sorry to double post. Like I said, I wasn't thinking, meant it as a joke to lighten things up(that really worked well :( ), and now I'm sorry. Everybody happy now? (please)

I think the War in Iraq is absolute BS. As much as I hate al-Queda, and I want to rip Osama's guts out with my bare hands, I think keeping troops in Iraq is pointless. I agree that we should have definitely knocked off Hussein like we did, but then we should have pulled out. The problem is, war = MONEY. The only problem is, that money costs lives. Cheney and his buddies own several companies that equip and support the military, so the war is making all of them money. Also, the fact that Iraq has a lot of oil helps too. It's obvious that the only reason we stayed in Iraq was so Cheney's friends could keep making money.

For example, a company manufactured a virtually unpenetrable body armor called Dragon Skin. This could withstand AK-47  7.62x39mm cartridges at point blank range, as well as frag grenade shrapnel. The current military-issue body armor (the company is owned by one of Cheney's friends) cannot. The military, however, said that the Dragon Skin armor "failed" in their testing. Um, hello? Obviously a lie. Actually, Generals in the army who get to pick their equipment use Dragon Skin, knowing that it is superior to the other body armor.

Cool info man! I want some Dragon Skin!

It does seem that we aren't doing much to help over there now, but if we pulled out now, whats to stop the bad guys from taking over again. Personally, I'm not sure what to think about the issue. I know several people who are over there, and yeah, war is costly, but as long as we're keeping them busy over there, they have less time to think about coming over here.(terrorists)

It's not our damn problem whether or not Iraq's government will become unstable again. We should pull out and focus our resources on, oh maybe the f'n economy or something. People are living in freaking tents! (And I'm almost one of them!) And this is the first instance where a country has gone into a recession and still maintain military superiority. Its ridiculous. I support the armed forces, but I don't think they are needed currently. We should at the most keep a smaller force in Afghanistan to completely root out and destroy Taliban and terrorist cells, but being in Iraq is just pointless.

Because if their government becomes "unstable", that's bad news for us along with all of Iraq's neighbors. We saw what happens when a country is unstable in WWII, with Nazi Germany. Surely we don't want that that to happen again mate!

Actually no, Nazi Germany wasn't unstable, it was just led by a bunch of evil, manipulative maniacs. It only became unstable after they started to lose in WWII.

We don't need to stay in Iraq. There are plenty of countries with unstable governments that we could be worrying about, like Somalia, Chad, and Sudan, but we aren't trying to help them. That's because in the big picture of things, they don't matter to us. Oil is the world's most precious resource besides water, and Iraq and the rest of the Middle East is LOADED with it.

that's not why we're still in Iraq. we're still in Iraq so terrorists don't take over and make the country like it was when Saddam Hussein was in power.

I'd say in a way you're both right.

Appo's argument has been used by many to make the U.S. *and Bush especially* look like a pure evil machine that crushs any and all who dare oppose our need for oil or whatever.  Realisticly, yes, oil is part of the picture of why we're there.  Anybody with a car has see what a destablizing thing it is for our energy supply to be threatened *and one could note that since 'evil mister Bush' invaded Iraq our oil and gas situation hasn't exactly been the image of bliss... maybe some should realize that maybe there are other factors in play*. 

Fett_II is also very correct in that Iraq is in a region we can't allow to fall apart.  If extreamists or Iran take over Iraq when we leave, all the blood we've spent to get that country back on it's feet will have been for nothing, and we here at home and the free world at large would face a greater threat of terrorist attack then ever before.

Just mho

There are other places in which we can get oil. And honestly, we are far to dependant on it. We really need to improve non-gas powered vehicles, AND make it so that their fuel is easily aquirable at any and every gas station.

We should've never meddled in Iraq in the first place. Bush wanted to go to Iraq even before 9/11 finished, and we could confirm bin Laden was behind it. He was just waiting for an excuse to go over there and finish what his dad started. Iraq is just another Vietnam. Same kind of deal, just different a country. Only Bush had kept things more hush-hush about Iraq so there wouldn't be major protesting.

Iraq now has a stable government put in place by us, along with a military. It's up to them how to handle themselves. And I do not like Iran. Theocracies are my most hated form of government besides Nazis. It just doesn't work.

And I agree with Cecilia 100%.

And I don't think Bush is evil, I think Cheney is the one behind everything. He's the smart one. Bush was just a puppet in my opinion.

The thing is we can never be completely independent of oil.  Plastic requires oil to be made.  It's involved in basically everything we do somehow.

We may never be completely oil free, but there are things we can do to help. Such as improve hybrid and gas-free cars. People just don't drive them as much right now because hybrids are considered to be slow, as well as their non-gas fuel being hard to come by. Personally my favorite alternative fuel is hydrogen cell.

And that's the thing that scares me. People don't really understand how important hydrocarbons are to almost everything we do and enjoy in life.

This is such a big deal that back in the 70s, when there was an oil embargo Hasbro, some of us are old enough to remember. stopped making G.I. Joe because the cost of petrochemicals became too high to produce Joe. No fooling. That's why the Adventure team ended and the Super Joe series, at a sorry eight inches, appeared. It also accounts to some extent to the diminutive stature of action figures in general since the  mid 70s until the mid 90s when Hasbro started producing 12" figures again.

Plastic IS oil (period)! That means when we shift from fossil fuels to renewable sources the world is going to change in ways few of us can imagine. 

On the other hand, it IS going to happen eventually. But just think of a world without SW figures! Or lawn furniture or anything that is made from plastic.

As a former anthropologist I would say that war. oil and religion are responsible for the way two or three generations of Americans have lived for the past four decades. (The television was only invented six decades ago and in those days they were huge wooden boxes!)

When we leave Iraq the Shias WILL take the country back with the help of Iran. It is insane to think that just because you change the surface of the society that it will effect the structure of the culture.  I think we as Americans are pretty stupid to think that if we bring our culture and way of life to others that they will act like we do.  If Bush/ Cheney screwed up anywhere it was in thinking that the people of Iraq are "just like us"  deep inside. The BS that Americans buy into about raising the standard of living in other countries will also bring westernization is delusional. Freedom DOES NOT mean the same thing to everyone everywhere.

Man! I love SW figures. I just wish Hasbro had not bought out Kenner...but I guess that's for another thread.

A big ole fake wood box with a teeeeny tiny screen to watch on! I remember when I was little that the TV we had since at least when I was born til I was 8 or so our TV was a wood panel faily small TV lolold. At least it was in colour though! The REALLY old TV we had for gaming then was all black and white. And now we have a giant, HDTV over 40 inches long thats less then a year old. Its fascinating how rapidly technology is going (telegraph, radio, black and white TV, colour TV, HD/Plasma TV). 20 years ago our computer had a tiny moniter, with very little things to do on that computer. And no colour, just black and yellow (not even green like how you'd see on old TV shows and movies. Black and a single shade of yellow!). Now I am using something that is flat, portable, can do hundreds of different things (games to writing to webcam to music) with God knows how many colours (skys the limit I guess!).

It is foolish to belive every country will behave the same. Even with democracy, Iraq and Afghanistan will NEVER be like the United States. Our cultures are just so radically different. Theres just no way we'll be able to get the different religious sects to get along. This is the best Iraq is going to get. If theres any place we should be concerned about, its Afghanistan. Which no one has hardly paid attention to since we invaded Iraq. The terrorists that came up with, and came to, the US to fly airplanes into buildings didn't come from Iraq. And the US is still vunerable to attack if anyone so desires. It took foriegn terrorists to show us how vunerable we are (we had homegrown terrorists in the 90's and we didn't do a thing to take another look at security...shameful).

See, that's just the joke of it, to think we have it all figured out. It's the same with the evolution thread.

What I have learned in my time as an anthropologist are the following two things.

1.) Everyone, everywhere, thinks their way of seeing the world is the correct way of seeing the world.
2.) Nothing anyone says will really change they way another person sees the world.

Look...guys... these poeple have been at war with themselves for over 1130 years...we can't help them...its just not possible...we should pull out our troops and shut our boaders and stay out of there...thats my OTHER opinion

If we pull out, that vacuum will be replaced by Radical Muslims and it will be a gigantic problem.

They have a stable government and military. You act like as soon as we leave they will go right back to where they were before. Then we would have to be there forever.

There is nothing stable about their government or military. They wouldnt be going back to the way they were because Radical Muslims werent in Iraq before because Saddam was keeping them out. They werent in Afganistan either until we showed up and gave them another reason to hate Americans, giving way for the RM's to enter.

Look, if you don't won't to pull the troops out, you should let them do thier job, and their job is to kill the enemy. Soldiers are trained to kill...to fight. Soldiers make peace by killing the enemy, or scaring the crap of them, so the can't fight.
If we really want to take care of these terrorist we have to kill them. I know I sound like I am blood thuirsty, but its true.
If we want to catch Osama, we must be able to kill his bodyguards.

I totally agree. The real problem with the war is the way it has been orchestrated. We have been going about it half-heartedly because we don't want to see Americans lose their lives.

My personal opinion is that we should have let things be and not invaded Iraq but if we are going to do it we should have gone in full force and  not allowed the radical islamic element to surface.

After we are gone Iraq will fall into a civil war. I am not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing, I mean we had a civil war too. It happens. People have been killing each other since we developed thumbs. But for Americans or the west in general to believe that just because we took out Saddam that suddenly Iraq was going to turn into a free and open democracy overnight is just naive. Right now there are several different factions of Iraqis just waiting to be let loose from under the thumb of the US occupation (and it's not ONLY Islamic extremists). They are just itching to start firing RPGs into their neighbor's yards. And actually it has been this way in that region for at least the past three to four thousand years or so depending on where you want to draw a line historically.

If we didn't want to see young Americans lose thier lives, we wouldn't be sitting around and leting these terrorist live, the best way to prevent death is to KILL the cause of the death. I'm sorry but it takes people to fight wars. Sometimes people get killed, we can't help that. People DIE at war; thats why nobody likes war.
   If nobody died...then we would just have wars all the time...and the world would be made of marshmellows...if we want to win...so to speak...there have to be more people killed on THEIR side...which means some of us are going to die...Nobody wants to die...but its a risk you take when you join the Armed Forces...if there was no risk...they would let anybody in the Army...but thier is..people die at war...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090308/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq

Obama really is an idiot.

Because he wants to remove soldiers from a place that they get killed in? Yeah, stupid idea.....

Because he's taking soldiers out of a place that isn't stable, still violent, still corrupt, and overall the worth of those soldiers that have died will have been for nothing. The last six years = waste of time, money, and complete shit now

He's starting the gradual pull of Americans out of Iraq. Do you expect them to stay there forever?

Theres 135,000 US troops in Iraq and only 12,000 are being taking slowly out until Fall. He's doing what he SHOULD be doing. al-Qaida and terroist support actually GROWS with the Americans there because hate for the US develops more with American troops being there.

The troops cant just be yanked out, because like I said that vacuum will be filled by Radical Muslims. It needs to be gradual, and it needs to be started as soon as possible.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

Iraq is not going to get better. We should have NEVER gone there in the first place. There were never any weapons of mass destruction. Bush rushed us in there before the UN could even get a real look around because he knew his one excuse would be gone fast. Bush wanted to invade Iraq even before the details of 9/11 were fully known. He only wanted to finish what his dad started, something that Clinton wisely stopped in the first place.

I agree Iraq is not a problem we can fix. Iraq itself is actually a British fabrication. Further, we had no business being there anyway.

Its a problem, yes, but Ibelieve if we pull out the Media, and let the troops KILL we could gain control over Iraq much quicker.

But if we had never have gone there, there would be no problem and many american would still be alive.