Star Wars "Purism"... and Boba Fett

I still agree with your view of Purism.  When people begin saying it's purism vs. George Lucas, I am confused.  Shouldn't anything he say be the ultimate form of purism?  Essentially giving him all power in the Star Wars Universe but that's another debate.  But I think purism is anything in the movies.  And anything in the Eu that contradicts Lucas or the movies should be considered null.

Issues to note:

1. The movies keep changing. Special Editions. DVDs. Et cetera.
2. Lucas changes his mind more than the movies. His quotes about the works show a lot of ideas in a lot of directions.
3. Lucas owns and profits from extended universe (EU) and other "canon" material and, with Lucasfilm, oversees those who make the business deals.

Not at all, Sharra.

This is exactly what I mean. Somehow, Purism has come to define a separation of the EU to many people throughout Star Wars fandom. The Purists I know, as well as myself, love the EU. Purism only comes into conflict when the narrative of the films is in dispute. I would argue that it is the result of poor writing, and a lack of knowledge about what they have written. I would cite examples, but I'm really trying to keep this thread about the idea of Purism, as defined by my fellow fans HERE in the BFFC, and not go off on a tangent about a particular idea I've posted... Time for that soon enough.

I want you Mandos to know where I stand as a Purist AND a fan of the EU, so I can bring up my concerns without the argument being blasted at me (again), that as a "Purist" I really have no place in discussing events in the EU.

Thanks for all the input so far. Keep it comin'...

I appreciate all the input. Thanks, everyone. I think it's safe to assume that we are, largely, all on the same level regarding the definition of a Star Wars Purist...

I would like to post a sample question, before I begin my discussion regarding Boba Fett. In another topic, I read a reply to a post I had made that, as a Purist, I strongly disagree with:

~ Jango Fett's clones used for the Grand Army of the Republic are, for the most part, not the same soldiers used for the Imperial Stormtroopers. ~

I'm somewhat aware of the EU's definition of the Stormtrooper ranks. I remember reading early (long before Episodes I-III hit the theatres) that Stormtroopers were largely conscripted humans. There was no mention of Clones at all. It seemed much like a standard army. Later, I read in one of Timothy Zahn's books, that Grand Admiral Thrawn was once again using Clones to repopulate his ranks. This was considered extremely dangerous, because (if I remember correctly) the Clone Wars were the result of "Clone Madness", an unforseeable side-effect of the early cloning processes that involved growth acceleration giving rise to a "Force Echo"... In short, Clones give off an identical "frequency" in the Force that would irrevocably drives the clones insane, and much carnage ensued. I also read that Stormtroopers were later cloned from seperate genetic templates, such as Imperial officers, and the like.

Now, in a Purist sense, if one were only to watch the movies, then you can only come the conclusion that the Imperial Stormtroopers ARE the same soldiers as the clones of the Grand Army of the Republic. The armor is identical, their unswerving loyalty to the Emperor is the same (and a vital quality needed for his personal army). Why would the Emperor allow for genetic anamolies to enter his ranks after the clones had performed so perfectly in the Clone Wars? Especially after the results they produced regarding Order 66? They had gone through such effort to find an ideal genetic specimen in the Fett bloodline of the Mandalorian Warriors, why tarnish your ranks with a less than ideal officer or human volunteer or draftee. A large part of the Clone's advantage was their teamwork. It's almost as if, in battle, they all thought along the same lines. In any given combat scenario, it would be hard NOT to know what your teammate is going to do. Throw strangers into the mix and you take away the clone army's greatest strength.

As a Purist, I have to disagree with the EU's definition of an Imperial Stormtrooper...

Thanks Ralin,

Now, according to the films of the Original Trilogy, there is NO origin given for the Stormtroopers. The viewer is left to assume whatever he/she wants, or like me, you can turn to the EU. Fine. Good. Then, Episode II comes along and we learn of the development of the clone army. At this point, the viewer knows that they aren't really going to be used to defend the republic, we know that they were created at Palpatine's wishes.

Enter Obi-Wan... standing on the balcony and looking out over what are, UNDOUBTABLY, the Stormtroopers. They don't just look similar to Stormtroopers, they ARE the Stormtroopers... albeit known to the Senate as the "Grand Army of the Republic". Sounds fancy, doesn't it. I'm sure Palpatine thought so too. The Republic sure dug it. "Awesome" I thought... Lucas' design for their origin trumps the EU, and in this circumstance, I'm glad.

In the EU, the clones have been rendered largely obsolete and replaced with a standard Human army.

In the films, the clones ARE the Stormtroopers.

So, which one can you possibly side with? Some would argue to just pick whatever story you like. I say that the EU has created a discrepancy with narrative of the films, and must be overridden. Retcon the EU, or whatever, but the Clones ARE the Stormtroopers... This is Lucas' design. He has ignored the EU on several occasions, and has done so for the Stormtroopers. I must side with Lucas.

To address your points:

1st, I wouldn't exactly call an army that can erradicate the Jedi "Stupid" or "Insignificant". The Death Star has one function: Destroy planets who don't tow the line. The Stormtroopers were the first line of attack in "convincing" disgruntled systems to shut up. Because the Death Star is "Plan B". Everything rolled into his lap because of the grand design of the Sith to defeat the Jedi. Yes, the whole pie was HIS... now he would have to keep it.

2nd, Honestly, I'm not exactly sure what you meant here...

3rd, The Clone Commandos who disobeyed Order 66 were largely ARC Troopers, and even then the percentage of total troops to disobey were easily less than 1%. If this made him nervous, how would drafting strangers improve loyalty? How could you know his personal motives? The Clones had NO ulterior motives. The Clones were totally obedient. Obedience to their leader was part of their genetic design, according to the Kaminoans.

Hence, the Purist trump card: "Only the films are canon"

Sorry Ralin, I was editing my post while you were replying to the original text... let me know if this affects your train of thought before I reply.

Wow a deep topic. So many points to address.

I actually don't consider myself a purist at all. I like to peice together all the different sources to achive my view on things. Somethings in the EU I ignore because they condradict something in the movies, things mentioned early on in the life of EU for  example because Ep I-III weren't yet written or planned. Purity I feel is hard to achive in a case such as this. I am a big fan of the EU as I think it makes somethings in the movies better and more interesting. The movies give a visual and audio basis for the EU too.  We know what an author means when they start talking about Boba's Armor or Obi Wan's lighsaber because we've seen those in the movies and have a reference now for them.

With the clones I have read and heard many sourses on that subject. In True Colors there is mention of how expensive Jango clones are from Kamino. They are the best of the best, and they take considerable time to get there.  It seems like Palpatine wanted to control cloning for himself, so that he could create more soldiers cheaper and faster, as well as making use of the technology for his own dark side purposes.

In Battlefront II the in the Rise of the Empire campaign it says that that after the establishment of the Galactic Empire and the end of the Clone Wars, Palpatine decided to change the clone template to be more than one individual so that it would be harded to corrupt.

In Timothy Zahn's Allegiance (which was written after Ep II actually) there are non-clone conscripts and recruits in the stormtrooper ranks.  Han Solo himself attended officers training on Carida I think and was once part of the Imperial war machine untill Chewbacca entered into the picture.

With Palpatine being a dark lord of the Sith, I think that he uses the death of stormtoopers to further his own dark side power. Sith feed off of death, with Darth Nihillus and Darth Malak as examples there.

Personally I think that the demographic of the Imperial Army/Navy slowly evolved into what is seen in Ep IV- VI. It started out as a great illustrious creation with the Jango Fett clones, and devolved into a mixed clone group, augmented with conscripts, that were weaker than the smaller sized army of Fett clones, but done so deilberately so that Palpatine could attain more personal power.

These aren't all my musings on the subject, but I was trying to not say too much all at once.

Great points. It's all so confusing. I think what sums up what I was trying to say is that it's hard to base something so big as SW on something as liquid as a movie where there are deleted scenes, unintended things in the background, reflections in the camera, etc. If the CW cartoons are canon, I think Mace does crush Grievous in that, though I'm not sure. It's been a while since I watched them. But, in the end I will have to agree, the movies have the final say.

As Si said, in Allegiance, the main characters are normal humans, and they VOLUNTEERED to serve. Many people saw the luster of the Empire and wanted to fight. Also, after going through training, many were effectively brainwashed, as seen in The Jedi Academy, or whatever the book was that the Sun Crusher was in, with Kyps brother. By Ep IV, the clones were dead or too old to fight. And when the Empire attacked Kamino, I imagine many scientists and equipment was lost. Not to mention, Ko Sai was gone. So lower chance of cloning more from Jango. And the clones would be lower quality. That's my opinion.