Topic: Star Wars "Purism"... and Boba Fett

The Star Wars Purist Doctrine: The films supercede anything in the Expanded Universe or the DVD Special Editions that may come into conflict with the narrative of the original theatrical releases.

That's how I've always defined myself as a "Purist" when debating events in the fantastic realm of the Star Wars Universe. Really, it's that simple. "Purist" is a title that has been given to me time and again during some very heated (albeit friendly) arguments with my fellow fans. But I've discovered recently that there is a very different (and generally widespread) definition of a Purist that I don't identify with at all. That it's us against them. That it's the big screen vs. the EU. That it's the Original Trilogy vs. the Prequel Trilogy. Even that it's the Purists vs. George Lucas himself. I, and many of my friends, honestly weren't aware of any of these ideologies when it came to calling ourselves "Purists" during a debate... and it troubles me. Indeed, there could be no Purists without the EU, so why the assumed emnity between the two? The films are the bedrock, the foundation, the very cornerstones that the wonderous EU is built upon. I don't convene with any Purists who aren't also fans to some degree of the EU. I wasn't aware that there was supposed to be such a rift between the films and the EU. Some of my favorite characters have only existed in the EU. Many answers I needed from the film can only be answered by the EU.

I don't dare engage this discussion on StarWars.com, as some of the fans inhabiting that site can be, well, let's just say, "seriously committed" to their point of view. I've found the BFFC to be much more even tempered for these sorts of ideas, and I'm curious as to what my friends here view as Purism.

As we flesh out the definition here, I will engage some questions in this thread about Boba Fett that have concerned me as a Purist for some time. Tough questions that I need to address with fellow fans and experts on the EU before the live action TV series begins in 2009.

This is why I joined.

So, my opening query is this: HOW DO YOU DEFINE PURISM?

I still agree with your view of Purism.  When people begin saying it's purism vs. George Lucas, I am confused.  Shouldn't anything he say be the ultimate form of purism?  Essentially giving him all power in the Star Wars Universe but that's another debate.  But I think purism is anything in the movies.  And anything in the Eu that contradicts Lucas or the movies should be considered null.

Never heard of Purism, to tell the truth. I believe Lucas is the final say so, what he says goes. I believe that the movies are the foundation, the rough draft, the sketch, of the SW universe, but they only began the story, and tell so little. I consider Licensed EU more of the Universe than the movies, because the movies cover so little: the Expanded Universe  IS Star Wars. The movies just started everything.

Issues to note:

1. The movies keep changing. Special Editions. DVDs. Et cetera.
2. Lucas changes his mind more than the movies. His quotes about the works show a lot of ideas in a lot of directions.
3. Lucas owns and profits from extended universe (EU) and other "canon" material and, with Lucasfilm, oversees those who make the business deals.

I must say the EU makes things more interesting than just the films. Does that sound nonpurist?

Not at all, Sharra.

This is exactly what I mean. Somehow, Purism has come to define a separation of the EU to many people throughout Star Wars fandom. The Purists I know, as well as myself, love the EU. Purism only comes into conflict when the narrative of the films is in dispute. I would argue that it is the result of poor writing, and a lack of knowledge about what they have written. I would cite examples, but I'm really trying to keep this thread about the idea of Purism, as defined by my fellow fans HERE in the BFFC, and not go off on a tangent about a particular idea I've posted... Time for that soon enough.

I want you Mandos to know where I stand as a Purist AND a fan of the EU, so I can bring up my concerns without the argument being blasted at me (again), that as a "Purist" I really have no place in discussing events in the EU.

Thanks for all the input so far. Keep it comin'...

Love this topic Bubba. Anyway. I have always known that whatever is in the movies is SW fact, written in stone. But, the EU is so much bigger, and so many characters are built upon it. I have gotten to the point where I want to throw the movies out the window, but I still use them to back up my arguments. The thing is, the movies are a complete product of Lucas's whims, he can put in a cameo, bring people back to life, make backstories in the movie that conflicts with already published and licensed products, and sometimes I feel the same way about books. Unfortunately, some are saying that the EU is not canon. If that is so, then the whole fiction falls apart at that point. Personally I think Lucas should have taken more fan input on the NT. And then there's this live action show coming next year with around, what, 400 episodes scheduled? At first I was excited, but now I'm thinking it's just gonna screw over everyone's ideas and perceptions of such great side characters as Boba Fett. So, it is a tough battle. I will have more to say on this later.

I appreciate all the input. Thanks, everyone. I think it's safe to assume that we are, largely, all on the same level regarding the definition of a Star Wars Purist...

I would like to post a sample question, before I begin my discussion regarding Boba Fett. In another topic, I read a reply to a post I had made that, as a Purist, I strongly disagree with:

~ Jango Fett's clones used for the Grand Army of the Republic are, for the most part, not the same soldiers used for the Imperial Stormtroopers. ~

I'm somewhat aware of the EU's definition of the Stormtrooper ranks. I remember reading early (long before Episodes I-III hit the theatres) that Stormtroopers were largely conscripted humans. There was no mention of Clones at all. It seemed much like a standard army. Later, I read in one of Timothy Zahn's books, that Grand Admiral Thrawn was once again using Clones to repopulate his ranks. This was considered extremely dangerous, because (if I remember correctly) the Clone Wars were the result of "Clone Madness", an unforseeable side-effect of the early cloning processes that involved growth acceleration giving rise to a "Force Echo"... In short, Clones give off an identical "frequency" in the Force that would irrevocably drives the clones insane, and much carnage ensued. I also read that Stormtroopers were later cloned from seperate genetic templates, such as Imperial officers, and the like.

Now, in a Purist sense, if one were only to watch the movies, then you can only come the conclusion that the Imperial Stormtroopers ARE the same soldiers as the clones of the Grand Army of the Republic. The armor is identical, their unswerving loyalty to the Emperor is the same (and a vital quality needed for his personal army). Why would the Emperor allow for genetic anamolies to enter his ranks after the clones had performed so perfectly in the Clone Wars? Especially after the results they produced regarding Order 66? They had gone through such effort to find an ideal genetic specimen in the Fett bloodline of the Mandalorian Warriors, why tarnish your ranks with a less than ideal officer or human volunteer or draftee. A large part of the Clone's advantage was their teamwork. It's almost as if, in battle, they all thought along the same lines. In any given combat scenario, it would be hard NOT to know what your teammate is going to do. Throw strangers into the mix and you take away the clone army's greatest strength.

As a Purist, I have to disagree with the EU's definition of an Imperial Stormtrooper...

I have to agree with the EU that Stormtroopers are NOT Clone troopers based on what I see. 

In Ep. II-III you have eliet, hard fighting, ACCURATE soldiers. 

In Ep. IV-VI you have bungling, TOTALLY INACURATE, and pretty much pathetic n00bs running around in white armor.

How would I explain the Emperor's actions for doing this?  I think he's say "Why not?"

1st, he had EVERYTHING roll right into his lap after the beat Yoda.  The whole pie was HIS.  Why waste money on stupid, insignificat clones one I can buy BIG pretties like the Death Star etc.

2nd. He probably gets a pervers pleasure knowing more clones will die for him to accomplish the same goal the CloneTroopers could have done.

3rd, evednce that some Clone Commandos wouldn't kill their Jedi commanders might have scared him a little, and he ordered a crackdown on their skills/abilities/brains to counter revolt, either by the clones themselves or by generals/admerials leading them

Thanks Ralin,

Now, according to the films of the Original Trilogy, there is NO origin given for the Stormtroopers. The viewer is left to assume whatever he/she wants, or like me, you can turn to the EU. Fine. Good. Then, Episode II comes along and we learn of the development of the clone army. At this point, the viewer knows that they aren't really going to be used to defend the republic, we know that they were created at Palpatine's wishes.

Enter Obi-Wan... standing on the balcony and looking out over what are, UNDOUBTABLY, the Stormtroopers. They don't just look similar to Stormtroopers, they ARE the Stormtroopers... albeit known to the Senate as the "Grand Army of the Republic". Sounds fancy, doesn't it. I'm sure Palpatine thought so too. The Republic sure dug it. "Awesome" I thought... Lucas' design for their origin trumps the EU, and in this circumstance, I'm glad.

In the EU, the clones have been rendered largely obsolete and replaced with a standard Human army.

In the films, the clones ARE the Stormtroopers.

So, which one can you possibly side with? Some would argue to just pick whatever story you like. I say that the EU has created a discrepancy with narrative of the films, and must be overridden. Retcon the EU, or whatever, but the Clones ARE the Stormtroopers... This is Lucas' design. He has ignored the EU on several occasions, and has done so for the Stormtroopers. I must side with Lucas.

To address your points:

1st, I wouldn't exactly call an army that can erradicate the Jedi "Stupid" or "Insignificant". The Death Star has one function: Destroy planets who don't tow the line. The Stormtroopers were the first line of attack in "convincing" disgruntled systems to shut up. Because the Death Star is "Plan B". Everything rolled into his lap because of the grand design of the Sith to defeat the Jedi. Yes, the whole pie was HIS... now he would have to keep it.

2nd, Honestly, I'm not exactly sure what you meant here...

3rd, The Clone Commandos who disobeyed Order 66 were largely ARC Troopers, and even then the percentage of total troops to disobey were easily less than 1%. If this made him nervous, how would drafting strangers improve loyalty? How could you know his personal motives? The Clones had NO ulterior motives. The Clones were totally obedient. Obedience to their leader was part of their genetic design, according to the Kaminoans.

Hence, the Purist trump card: "Only the films are canon"

Well, I'm doing the same thing.

I didn't use the EU at all except for the post Ep. II EU that talks about clones disobaying orders to kill Jedi.  I am basing my theory on what I see in the movies, and everything I see tells me these are NOT the same caliber of troops that won the Cone Wars

Sorry Ralin, I was editing my post while you were replying to the original text... let me know if this affects your train of thought before I reply.

Interesting topic...

As a fan, I can see how the "purist" mentality complicates things by overanalyzing events in comparrison between the movies and the EU.

As someone who considers himself a "purist," here is my take on the Universe as a whole.

I prefer to enjoy events of the SW universe chronologically, very much like the timeline printed in the beginning of each novel. Events of the six films fit in pretty well within the timeline, with very little questions (at least for me). Not that its perfect,..but I believe that the universe can only be improved by the works of other authors like KT, Luceno, Allston, and Denning...

As for Palpatine's motive with the clones...I figure that he'd just as easily throw their lives away without a second thought...he was a megalomaniacal Sith after all...

Wow a deep topic. So many points to address.

I actually don't consider myself a purist at all. I like to peice together all the different sources to achive my view on things. Somethings in the EU I ignore because they condradict something in the movies, things mentioned early on in the life of EU for  example because Ep I-III weren't yet written or planned. Purity I feel is hard to achive in a case such as this. I am a big fan of the EU as I think it makes somethings in the movies better and more interesting. The movies give a visual and audio basis for the EU too.  We know what an author means when they start talking about Boba's Armor or Obi Wan's lighsaber because we've seen those in the movies and have a reference now for them.

With the clones I have read and heard many sourses on that subject. In True Colors there is mention of how expensive Jango clones are from Kamino. They are the best of the best, and they take considerable time to get there.  It seems like Palpatine wanted to control cloning for himself, so that he could create more soldiers cheaper and faster, as well as making use of the technology for his own dark side purposes.

In Battlefront II the in the Rise of the Empire campaign it says that that after the establishment of the Galactic Empire and the end of the Clone Wars, Palpatine decided to change the clone template to be more than one individual so that it would be harded to corrupt.

In Timothy Zahn's Allegiance (which was written after Ep II actually) there are non-clone conscripts and recruits in the stormtrooper ranks.  Han Solo himself attended officers training on Carida I think and was once part of the Imperial war machine untill Chewbacca entered into the picture.

With Palpatine being a dark lord of the Sith, I think that he uses the death of stormtoopers to further his own dark side power. Sith feed off of death, with Darth Nihillus and Darth Malak as examples there.

Personally I think that the demographic of the Imperial Army/Navy slowly evolved into what is seen in Ep IV- VI. It started out as a great illustrious creation with the Jango Fett clones, and devolved into a mixed clone group, augmented with conscripts, that were weaker than the smaller sized army of Fett clones, but done so deilberately so that Palpatine could attain more personal power.

These aren't all my musings on the subject, but I was trying to not say too much all at once.

This is what I love about the BFFC, so many different viewpoints, and from fans who are very knowledgeable regarding just about everything from the EU. I myself am not that familiar with the EU, but I DO consider myself a fan. Thanks Si, for your points regarding True Colors, as well as Darth Nihilus and Darth Malak. Spot on. And Virulent, it's true... when there is a conflict, the only way NOT to overanalyze a way out, is to trump the whole mess in Lucas' favor. Sometimes it works out best, sometimes not so much. Ralin, to address a small point, the Clones Technically didn't win the war, anymore than the Droids lost it. The war was a mechanism to destroy the Jedi and secure Sith control over the Galaxy. The Clones were instrumental. They were key to the whole plan. That's why Jango was chosen. That's why he kept Jango's Clones.

Remember the scene where Jango hits his head on the hatch of Slave 1, after defeating (and he DID defeat him in that fight) Obi-Wan on Kamino? That's a direct reference to the Stormtroopers always hitting their heads on hatchways throughout the OT. It wasn't because the actors couldn't see sh*t through their helmets, it's because Jango was always hitting his head. That's pretty cool. And funny.

I was discussing this topic with a friend who brought up a very interesting point: It's not so much that the EU comes into conflict with the narrative of the films, rather, it's the films (as they are released to the theaters) that create conflict within the EU. In most cases the EU was there first. LUCAS himself approves what can or can't be written into his universe, and then changes his mind entirely when he makes the next movie, forcing fans of the EU to try and work out the new discrepancy. This happens quite a bit.

I'll give a quick example, and try not to stray off of the Stormtrooper topic: General Grievous' wheezing and coughing. Well, "What's up with that?" I thought in the theatres. Lucas allows Genndy Tartarsauceky (or whatever his last name is) to suggest that moments before we see Grievous enter the bridge, his chest was Force-crushed by Mace as he made his escape from Coruscant. Then I listen to the DVD commentary for Episode III where Lucas explains that he wanted to show that the cybernetic breathing apparatus was archaic and troublesome, giving rise to Vader's mechanical breathing. What the hell, George!? Which one is it? Genndy's idea is way cooler than Lucas', but it IS Lucas' gig. If that's what he says, then that's what it must be. If there's a discrepancy between the films and the EU, then "only the films are canon". In this circumstance it sucks, I don't agree with Lucas on this idea, but Lucas has final say. It's not about Mace, it's about Vader. Whatever.

According to Lucas, Jango's Clones ARE the Imperial Stormtroopers. I always wondered how the Emperor could convince volunteers, or conscripts that destroying whole planets was in the best interest of the Galaxy. Wouldn't a lot of Stormtroopers rebel against the Empire themselves? How could he guarantee loyalty on such a grand scale as vast as his army was? And Vader was always freakin' killing his own men. "This outfit sucks, man... I'm outta here."

How? Because they were bred to obey.

"They'll do their job well. I'll guarantee that."

Great points. It's all so confusing. I think what sums up what I was trying to say is that it's hard to base something so big as SW on something as liquid as a movie where there are deleted scenes, unintended things in the background, reflections in the camera, etc. If the CW cartoons are canon, I think Mace does crush Grievous in that, though I'm not sure. It's been a while since I watched them. But, in the end I will have to agree, the movies have the final say.

Well for a while after watching Ep. III deleted scenes I thought that one Jedi, Shaak Ti was dead.  But when I see her in TPU I was like "Hey she's dead!"  Then I remembered it was a deleted scene.

As Si said, in Allegiance, the main characters are normal humans, and they VOLUNTEERED to serve. Many people saw the luster of the Empire and wanted to fight. Also, after going through training, many were effectively brainwashed, as seen in The Jedi Academy, or whatever the book was that the Sun Crusher was in, with Kyps brother. By Ep IV, the clones were dead or too old to fight. And when the Empire attacked Kamino, I imagine many scientists and equipment was lost. Not to mention, Ko Sai was gone. So lower chance of cloning more from Jango. And the clones would be lower quality. That's my opinion.

Thanks Merciless and everyone else,

StarWars.com would have ripped me to shreds by now, with 20,000 incindiary posts eventually leading to the thread being locked by the moderators. Death threats, etc. I'm all too aware of how touchy this topic could be, and I'm glad everyone is being so cool. Trust me, I'm walking on egg shells here, as I'm sure some of you have noticed... the Boba questions are gonna be tough, but I know I'll find what I'm looking for. I need advice from the pros, so please bear with me.

I should clarify one idea: The EU is just as much SW canon, in my opinion, as the films. However in a situation like the examples I've mentioned, where a discrepancy arises between the two, I as a Purist will simply negate the EU in favor of the films. The backstory written by the EU is no longer valid to me. Like Virulent said earlier, the other option is to overanalyze the two until you drive yourself nuts, believe me.

First Lucas allowed the EU to create a very fluid and in-depth account of the Stormtroopers, then he introduces us to the Clones, now we're here trying to make sense of this dillema.

Long ago, as I'm sure many of you remember, rumors were circulated amongst fans that Boba was somehow tied in with the Stormtroopers. I personally loved the idea, and propogated the rumor every chance I had. I think Lucas may have latched onto that notion when scripting Jango and the Clone Army. I don't know what was in the dude's head, but I've learned from interviews that the guy has ears everywhere regarding Star Wars fandom, and is quite hip to a lot of fan speculation. You'd be surprised at how much the guy knows about how we feel in the EU. If I had the chance, I would ask him if that was the case with Jango. Nevertheless, rumor is now fact.

So there you have it: The Stormtroopers are clones of Jango Fett, just as Boba is. In this instance, i'm glad to disregard the EU in favor of Lucas' writing.

Let me know what you think... this is about to get interesting.