Topic: Karen Traviss...

she could still continue writing, most of the EU is considered non-canon anyway.

agreed
only movie canon matters when you get down to it sadly

ummm... i'm not avoiding her work.  As I've said, I havn't gotten around to the later era that covers Boba, but I hope to in the somewhat-near future, and I'm like half way through her Commando series.  I was commenting on digging into her web-site/blogs etc. 

And Dravage, nobody HAS to read anything she writes.  I honestly think few if any real haters do read anything she writes.  I don't consider myself a KT hater, she's come up with some absolutely fantastic stuff for the Mando'ade, all of which I've tryed to give her credit for when due.  I simply have issues with certain parts of her style and the girlish way she's made a sob-story of every character I've read from her up to this point and were she's taken the Mando'ade culture as a whole. 

It sucks if you were 'upset' by the fact that there are a lot of ppl who disagree with KT's ideas, but you need to appreciate that there were a LOT of possible routs that ppl could have and did envision Boba and/or the Mandalorians going based on what little yet fasinating information we had about them.  She chose her course, for better and for worse, and a lot of ppl were left with a totally different culture and Boba then they'd worshiped for a long time.  She broke that mysterious vail that had shrouded both the Mando'ade and Boba and gave them a solid concrete story; one that completely contradicts what a LOT of fans wanted. 

Not that they all wanted the same thing.  This was going to happen no matter what story was given to the Mando'ade and Boba.  Hell, there's a very large chunk of ppl who didn't want any solid story at all.  It was that mystery they liked.  Toes were going to be stepped on no matter what.  You're very lucky if she's done something you totally approve of and love, and more power to you if you want her to keep writing.  I just hoppe you'll keep in mind that the coin could have flipped the other way, and that you wouldn't be happy either if she'd jacked up your idea of the Mandos and Fett but had made me or Miba perfectly happy

According to a contact of mine with the Mando Mercs Costume Club, one of the changes involves the 'Mandalorian Capitol City on Mandalore" being called Sundari instead of Keldabe as we all know now. IMO this is an easy retcon. During the first Galactic Civil War Sundari is destroyed so Fenn Shysa relocates the capitol to Keldabe. problem solved.

Here's a screencap of Sundari on Mandalore

lol she had no right? Im sure that fat pay check signed by George Lucas says otherwise.

Im amazed that people complain about what Boba Fett had become due to the books and comics in the EU. Fine you dont have to believe it... That simply mean Boba Fett was a little punk with like 2 lines, 15 minutes of air time. and couldnt control his jet pack and DIED like a tool. Is that the cut and dry, black and white character your in love with? God forbind anyone give him character.

oh and my bet is that the second season of Clone wars shows a unified Mandalorian nation fighting against the republic (which is why they are going ofter obi-wan in the trailer). This means the cuy'cal dar never happened, no Mandalorian trained clones, no RC series.

I wouldn't be so thrilled... I mean, with her departure, someone else will only take over the legacy of Boba Fett and the Mandalorians, and no one else will be able to give it the appropriate justice...

Annnnd Miba, I've always liked you and respected you, but you need to get over the whole "told you so thing" about the Clone Wars. I think the only people who expected Clone Wars to be phenomenal were 12 year olds...

@McCoy: A simple name change might be easy, but since when do Mando's have bustling cities? I thought their settlements were supposed to reflect their nomadic roots. Maybe that's where the Clone Wars interfered too much, that Sundari is far too modern to fit into KT's Mando culture. I mean going by the picture it looks like the buildings are like skyscrapers, something you'd find on Corruscant.
But damn, you think if the Clone Wars team was gonna feature the Mandos on their show they would atleast speak to Karen for guidance! I don't know what's worse.... their ignorance or their arrogance! >_>

Agreed. But think about it this way, maybe someone will write about how during the Galactic Civil War the Empire destroyed Sundari which is why Fenn Shysa's Mandos lived in Keldabe as the new capitol? No one ever said Keldabe was centuries old or anything. So that I think could be fixed.

As far as guidance, I agree the clone wars team just must not give a damn about anything they do because surely some intern for the show could go "hey guys according to wookiepedia this is nothing what Mandalore is like, and we should really give Karen Traviss a call if we have any questions before we CRAP ALL OVER EVERYTHING" lol

But still, if it's a city and nothing like the lifestyle KT imagined for the Mandos than it could totally contradict her work. >_<
So yeah, it really seems like that don't give a damn about established canon whatsoever, because "makin an awezome TV show for da kiddies so Lucas is rollin in moar cash" > (is greater than) writing a novel for the REAL fans, apparently.

Eloquently put. 

But yes I wholeheartedly agree with Manji.  I really hope (although knowing what has happened to Boba in the past concerning books and movies *cough*Jaster Mereel backstory *cough* GL cares nothing for the Expanded Universe) he realizes how many true fans all of the EU books have brought in as opposed to the 4 year old children who don't know the difference between a mynock and a mythosaur.

Ah well.  We can complain all we want but ultimately it all comes down to George Lucas anyway so we might as well try to appreciate the fact we are getting some Mandalorian screen time.

I am left speechless by Karen Travis's decision...Completely shocked. Now hearing about having the Mando'ade history being Rewritten? A new capitol for Mandalore? The Cuy'cal dar never happening? NO Mandalorain trained clones?

I mean seriously! What is George Lucas and David Filoni thinking? Now that KT has Mando'ade culture popular their just going to waltz in and rewrite everything? If this happens...What the hell is there to like about SW for Christ sake?

And all for a stupid 12 year old cartoon? Seriously?

What. The. F*ck

Ok, is This comment the only source of all the fear on this thread?  Or is there some solid link anybody has handy that shows that Mando history is gonna get rewritten....again

I mean, even if there is some basis for all this dispair, the information I've read here doesn't sound ALL that bad yet *although I'm very aware of how bad it COULD get, knowing Lucas and his past disreguard for the EU.*  But bear with me for a minute:

1.  Acording to Dose, he 'bets' that the second season of Clone Wars will show a unified Mandalorian nation fighting the Republic. 

Um, that doesn't contradict the existing EU by very damn much.  For those who havn't heard, most armored and armed Mandos are MERCS!  The Cuy'Val dar COULD have happened, not only because Mercs hire out for the best money but Also because they happend 10 FREEKIN YEARS BEFORE THE WAR!!!  Second, a UNIFIED Mandalorian Nation could be interpreted in several different ways, many of which fall perfectly into line with existing EU.  First, KT herself wrote in True Colors that the Planet Mandalore was hostile ground for the Jedi/Republic; hell the only Mando actually working hands on with them is Skirata that I can think of off hand.  I can't recall exact references, but I'm pretty damn sure she states in other passages that most Mandos had sided with the Seps precisely BECAUSE they were gunning for the Jedi and the Republic *lovely history that these cultures have with each other*.  Reguardless, most if not all of KT's Commando series could still stand I believe.

And also, lets not forget Mandalore the Resurrector.  This, IF they choose to honor the EU *but hell, who am I kidding; but we can always hope right?  Or at least explain FOR Them that this is what happend,* could very well be that 'unified' Mandalorian assult being referenced, if it exists at all

2.  Again, I'll need to see some source material to know what's going on about Keldabe being somehow replaced as capital of Mandalore *if that happens, I'll be pissed...*  HOWEVER, to address Manji's concerns, large cities are Very possible on Mandalore.

Lets not forget, Mandalore is home to an ANCIENT civilization, one that once dominated and nearly conquered the Entire Galaxy!  The "nomad" lifestyle has been one of my longest touchy spots against KT; as a fan of the KotOR era Mandos, I didn't feel that it was a true refelction of who they were and what they did.  However, I gave up the point and agreed that they had changed over the years INTO a much more traditionally nomadic people.  That being said, during their golden era of conquest and glory, they very easily could have constructed MONSTEROUSLLY large cities if they'd wanted to.  Much of that could have been reclaimed by the jungle over the last 4 thousand years, and perhaps they weren't all that industrious in the first place with all their conquesting adventures.  But SOME cities *including the VERY ancient City of Bone *which I'd always though WAS Keldabe, or at least Part of Keldabe was the City of Bone...another reason I'll be pissed if they change that* of large scale could possiblely, if not very likely, still exist.

Long story short, I totally agreen with Sev.  We all know how easy GL finds it to step on the EU on his way to the bank.  However, based on my stated observations above, I wouldn't start freeking out just yet

I feel that there are good and bad about the books.  For one the language Mando'a would not have been created.

And I would have been ok with that if it meant not having her mess everything up. She's just written a fanfiction that blew way out of proportion.

this. i don't think karen traviss was all that great. the RC novels were good, but they coulda been better.

Yeah the commando books could have been better. I agree.

Same.  She twisted my idea of what the Mandalorians should have been at the time.  That being said, her stories weren't all that bad in concept; I just didn't care for her delivery.  I really don't consider her all that good of an author.  She repeats herself constantly, and I swear in my mind she's only written for one character, and it's probably based on herself.  They all have, sooner or later, the exact same mindset.  She personally believes so firmly in her humanitarian mission to save the clones from an unjust life and fate that I don't think she could find a way *or didn't bother to try* to make a character that didn't agree with her. 

And it's worse then that. 

All her characters have the EXACT same phycological issues.  None of them EVER do enough.  The clones let each other down, they let pappa Kal down, pappa Kal lets everybody down, Walon lets his squads down, Etain barely makes it through any page she's on without breaking down in tears for all the ppl she thinks she's failed in one way or another.  NONE of her characters display a solid, unpenetrable sense of confidence.  None except the nemisis Mando in the first book, and I'm sure she would have started to break him down if he'd survived to any of the other books; and no doubt would also have joined Kal's crew because of the overwhelming rightiousness of it all. 

Probably my oldest tag against her has been my observation that she tells us one thing and shows us another.  She likes to lable each of her characters has this kind of hard-ass, or that kind of slightly phsyco ball of uncontrolable hell wrapped up in a clone.  Then she proceeds to ignore her own lables and describe them all as relatively equal sized lovable fuzz-balls.  If they are sugar-puffs, don't try to hide it behind a quick little note that claims they are virtually uncontrolable lions off the leash; write for your charcters as they are and let the reader decide how tough they are.  If nobody thingks they are tough and therefore aren't doing your character justice as you wish him/her to be seen, that's because you didn't describe them properly.

Anyway, that's my KT rant for the day.

And all this being said, I'm CRUSHED to hear that it's possible that all her work is going to be trashed and replaced by that garbage on the Clone Wars TV show.  Much as I disagree with her, this will be a FAR worse fate...

*sigh* Sadly I think I agree with you. As awful as her stuff is at least it's not being seen by innocent children who don't know any better.

I'll take Karen Traviss over 'Star Wars: The Clone Wars' any day.

Looks like there might be a final Imperial Commando book after all. 

http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=270737&start=1155

At least they'll end the series instead of leaving us hanging.

it upsets me that KT wont be finishing it out, just because i feel its her characters and she should be able to end it.... but as long as its good and it ends well i'll be happy

Well, they haven't released the name of the author yet because they're still working out the contract, so I'm still hoping it will be Traviss.  There was scuttlebutt that the author is trying to work at getting two Star Wars books in their contract and since KT had originally been slated to do a Post-Legacy Boba Fett book, I'm hoping it's for that one.

good point, maybe im just being a sad lonely pessimist

It definitely won't be Traviss

Hopefully the last commando Book will be great. I am dying to see how the books end.

And all of this over a character who was supposed to play a minor role in the background.
I would have preferred it if KT stuck to writing her own crap. Her books read like a British soap-opera.

Boba Fett was much cooler before all of the elaboration.

But I am really old-school.

static, 30 year old characters that never change are quite boring actually

While it annoying at times that they are all shown as lovable messed up people (the clones), it makes sense. They're only 13, they're just kids in men's bodies trained to kill and have killed many many times. An adopted child forced to kill would be lovable and messed up. So it actually makes sense. She throws in descriptions of powerful rage and what not because when it comes down to it, they will destroy their enemies. And Kal feels like he's let them down because he adopted them and still can't offer them normal lives.

Do you guys agree?

I agree with ya. Kal feels guilty about the abuse the republic did to the clones. That is why Kal and Vau took their clones and went into hiding and have been there to help other clones defect.

LOL!!!  That about sums up my grief with her in a nutshell.  And nothing wrong with being old-school ner vod  ;) 

However, in light of the possibility *or already a fact?* that all her work is about to go down the drain, I'd like to reflect back on the great things she's done for the Mando'ade

1. First and foremost, she gave us the Mandalorian language.  The first ever fully functioning Star Wars language!  How epic is that?  It must have taken a body and soul effort to put that much time and thought into such an undertaking; a job I can't even imagin.

2. She gave the Mando'ade the center stage in the creation of one of the jems to be saved from the mess that was the new trilogy: she strengthened the already present connection between the Mandos *Jango* and the creation of the Clone Army.  I loved her entire thesis of the Mando sergeants being used in the training of the clones and the affects Mando intructors would have on their charges because it mirrored my own ideas in a lot of ways.  Maybe that makes me a bit biased on this point, but I'm not too modest to say that I really liked the idea and I think she did really great things with it.

3. She resurected the Mandalorian culture.  I don't give her credit for 'creating' the Mando'ade because the KotOR games and comics came before her, and in all honesty I like their version a lot more then hers.  However, most of the places you would look before KT told use that Boba and/or Jango were either not Mandalorians at all or that they were the VERY last of their kind, wearing the ancient relics of a long destroyed culture that no longer had any bearing on the galaxy.  She brought the Mando'ade back into the very forefront of current events in the SW galaxy, and made them bigger then just Jango and Boba.

We can debate as to her delivery, the way she portrays Boba and the Mando'ade in comparison to the movies/KotOR/our wishful fantasies, and the actual weight and streangth of her characters and their individual stories, but taken into a whole I think her contributions outweigh any of her mistakes.

Well said Ralin. She did have some flaws but I as well tend to focus more on the good she did then the bad.

Not exactly saying I focus more on the good then the bad that I felt she gave us; if you were to read back a bit when I was more active you'd see I've been one of the voices of opposition on this thread.  But again, whatever bad I may feel she caused to the Mandalorian culture, I'm trying to high light the positive controbutions I feel that she did make.

If any of the newer members who havn't seen my previous posts/work are curious as to what my idea of the Mandos should have been, you can check out My Post here on the boards where I combined KT's SW Insider artical about her version of the Mando'ade with my own version *I modified the artical to appear to be a comparison between the ancient Mandos and their decendents; the old-school Mandos are my work/interpretation, and the new-school Mandos are of course KT's.*  In my happy little world I've begun writing for the ancient Crusaders of the Mandalorian Wars era, and the RepCom/KT ideas of the culture are a modern evolution of the Mandalorian people.  Feel free to check it out and leave comments on what you think, where I'm wrong for if you agree, etc.

PS - I've noticed in my return to the boards that a LOT if not all of my old posts have a lot of weird coding in place of the  '  and  "  marks, so please forgive the mess.  If I notice any activity on any of my old posts/threads I'll try to go in and clean that out as I can.

ton of old news posts have that too, it happened when we changed servers

Ahhh, was wondering what happend.  Thxs for the heads up.

Yeah, well creating an entire mythology out of a character that was, at best, a background character, and never meant to be much more, I mean the guy didn't even have a name for a while, is pretty bunk too!

No, there I disagree.

Boba's character and armor were BEGING to have stories pinned to them.  He was such an interesting looking and behaving character that it was unavoidable that he would attract a great deal of attention, and I think Lucas fumbled by under-utilizing him in Ep. V, and then by trying to undermine him in VI.  And despite both of these flubs Boba's potential was still intact.  I think the creation of the Mandalorian culture for the first comics and later the KotOR comics/games was one of the most epic steps ever.  They were Spartans, Vikings, and Crusader Knights all in one; everything I could hope to love!  It's Lucas's inablility to keep a rein on their storyline and never-ending rewriting that's pizzed me off. 

In short, creating an entire mythology out of a single nameless character isn't bunk; it's a response to a curious fandom that saw more potential in a character then his own creator did.  It's the mishandling and uncontroled rehashing of that culture and mythology that is