Topic: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

I can see what your saying from your point of view, although I don't agree with it (no hard feelings, right?). Thanks for clarifying, though. :)

Also, what do you believe to be the way that the universe came to be?

I don't think you can bring something back to life...bacteria or whatever...using any means...(lightning?!)     If we are talking about the first life form though...then there wouldn't be the leftovers or traces of once living ones...i think i get the jist of what you're saying...i hope i'm not too confusing....oh whatever. :) ;)

                                                                {MW} MS9

Actually bacteria can survive for thousands of years in cold climates until their enviorment becomes suitable for them again. And what Daenna means is, if you look at ANY place  on Earth, any hostile place you can think of, theres one trace or another of life.

that makes sense...because after awhile creatures die....and eventually come to make up the dirt we have now...common sense, but how does this apply to what she was saying?  I'm still a little confused... :)

                                                     {MW} MS9

That's not the right way to put it, you'll drag mob aggro and will get pwnd in a matter of minuts :P

Fear is what makes people choose religion and closed-mindness over doubt and open-mindness. It makes them feel safe and confident. The Bible provides easy answers to most questions in life and that suits them just fine. I know people who believe in God but who are still very open-minded... But what I don't like is to see people who lock themselves in the religious dogmas of the Bible, and any twist of their truth could make their world collapse.

You have no idea how this thread has influenced my judgement of most of you people ;)

Okay, hold up.  Believing that the Bible is perfect does not mean that I am close-minded.  To the contrary, my college professors and fellow students who have told me, "You can't possibly believe that the Bible is perfect!" are the close-minded ones.  I am still open to other interpretations of what it says, or open to the idea that such and such a verse may be poorly translated or fragmented in our English versions.  And I do not have any qualms against those who believe it is not perfect.  I don't think God really cares.  Personally, I have no fear of the Bible being proven wrong and my world collapsing, because it is the only thing in my life where I have the confidence and the arrogance to say, "Yes, I am right about this."

On a side note, I grew up as an evolutionist, and my family has never been regular church goers.  I have been a creationist for about 18 months or so.  Changing your mind after seeing the evidence cannot possibly make a person close-minded.

Daenna, if I were choosing my belief system based upon fear, then I would certainly be an evolutionist, since I was publically humiliated time and time again in school this semester without doing anything to deserve it.  All I did was speak up when they started attacking religion, and for that my grade has suffered.  How is that a reaction based in fear?

Cecilia, in reply to your statement, one has only to remember the great philanthropists like Mother Theresa to see that religion does not "only cause suffering."  Perhaps religion without salvation makes people unhappy because they don't understand the rules they are following, but those who are saved find joy in doing God's work.  But I'm getting off topic.  This thread is supposed to be about evolution, not about whether or not believing in Biblical canonity makes you a close-minded fool.

The Gunslinger is doing a really good job of explaining natural selection, but I'm going to help by providing the Zoo Books explanation that I grew up with.  So, there are two short legged horses.  Somehow when they have a baby, it mutates and has long legs.  When the saber-tooth tigers chase all the horses, the ugly duckling horse always gets away, while the normal horses are more likely to die.  The ones that live pass on their genes, and so the ugly duckling fathers more long-legged horses.  The same cycle happens over and over again, and each generation there are more and more long-legged horses in the gene pool.  Eventually the short-legged horses completely cease to exist.  As you can see, natural selection does not act upon the individual or the entire species, but upon a single population, which is a group of one species that lives in a certain place (within breeding distance).  A few hundred miles away, all the horses may still have short legs, and thus, we stupid humans with our categorizing systems might choose to call it a different species.  But like race and skin tone, species are a continuum and oftentimes it is difficult to tell where one ends and another one begins, since they are all human-defined categories.

Anyway, I love everyone.  Don't judge.

Like I said: religion gives you self-confidence in a way that you take what's said in the Bible like your own opinion. Which is not, it was created by others a long time ago. I wasn't saying that it has flaws, it's people who mostly read it the wrong way. That's why most religions are dangerous because they're based on obscure writings that can be interpretated a thousand different ways.

You can switch from a side to another and still think that the current truth you know is the only one. You're being exclusive, not open-minded.

You fear to be alone in your situation, that's why you provoke people into "hating" you instead of ignoring you. That reaction is typical to people who have just got into a new lifestyle or such, they want to affirm their new spiritual status by provoking a strong reaction from others. Perhaps now that people know your position on this you feel more confident in yourself? Choosing religion is a daring move for any aware adult person.

I respect people's spiritual choices as long as it stays an individual perpective for them... and not an opportunity to set themselves above the others on the intellectual level.

If evolution is true, where are all the "transitory" fossils?

Well I just did a Google search and came up with the appropriate article:

"Fossil find fills evolution gap" Article >

Seems like most of the questioning and lying accusations here are based on lack of knowledge.

But most of Evolution is just speculation, right? Scientists say that the Earth is billions of years old. How do they know that? They weren't there when the Earth was created. Also, dealing with the fossil above, why do they think that it is a transitory fossil? It could have been a species that died out after the Flood, like the dinosaurs.

And also about transitory fossils... I didn't specify what I wanted to know, so I'm sorry about that. I'll specify :). Why aren't there tons of transitory fossils, since evolutionists think we came from them? There are millions of people on the Earth, so it would make sense that we would have found a few of them by now. Also, why aren't there any "half-evolved" creatures running around?

You should really informed yourself from more official sources (the library? internet?), and study biology a bit more before saying it's all "speculations". OF COURSE nobody was there to witness the birth of our planet. Maybe if you'd pay more attention in class you would know? I dont know which grade you're in so don't take any offense. But all of the questions you asked have answers.... no scientist would dare claim anything before having gathered all the necessary evidence. If science was as amateurish as you think it is, we wouldn't be able to send people on the moon or cure cancer.

I'm really, really tempted to stop posting cause I get the feeling that people here are only half-interested in the answers they request :(

NO dont stop posting!, wait to you mean in the thread or the entire BFFC?

I meant in this thread. What, do you think I am over-reacting to the point of cutting off BFFC for good? :P

well no........ but i would be sad if you stoped posting all together. but i'm going to stop posting here so.. bye bye people

I honestly meant no offense, Daenna. :)

None at all :)

Personally, as far as the creation of the universe goes, (I know this is off-topic, so please no one turn the conversation this way. I just hate not answering when someone asks me a question) I don't know what to think. The question is just...impossible to answer, by nature. The Big Bang proof may have some semlance of scientific evidence behind it (red shift, etc), but not enough to be sure. So I don't worry about it. God created it. Whether it was via Big Bang or a literal "let there be light", doesn't really matter to me. I choose to not take sides when there isn't enough clear evidence :)

What do you consider "half-evolved"? Evolution isn't a process that can be completed, so it can't be partially done. It's a perpetual influence that makes a species better suited to its environment and lifestyle.

There's a famous moth example they always use in biology classes. There's a species of moth that survives by blending into the bark of trees. Those looking most like tree bark survive best, so they could be considered the "best" evolved ones. However, factories start releasing smoke that darkens the trees' hues. Now all the perfectly-matching ones stick out like a sore thumb and get eaten, and the darker ones, the ones less likely to survive before, become the best suited to survive. Evolution in all relative to the environment and lifestyle of the species.

Psst, I used the moth example on the last page =P

People know the Earths age because they can check the radiation the rock gives off. The older the rock, the less the radiation. Alls the scientists have to do is test all the rock, and determine from the oldest how old the Earth is. Its a technique thats been around for a long time.

Hehe...sorry about that. Missed that bit. Lots of info back there.

Okay, half-evolved meaning, when a creature is evolving from one creature to another... That's as well as I can place it into words, so sorry!

Oh, and Tanks for putting up with me!

Hey everyone...i'm really glad we have both sides on here. It makes it a good discussion topic.

I still think one of the best proofs of creation instead of evolution is irreducible compexity. I've just finished up with a worldview class that really helped me better understand and strengthened my beliefs. I really enjoyed going through different icons of evolution, and seeing what they believe while seeing what i believe about it at the same time.

Isn't great to just roll down your window and smell the fresh air and see all of God's beautiful creation!!! It always gets me soo excited, just rolling down the window in my truck and thinking how lucky I am to be alive today. We all think that at one time or another, evolutionists and creationists alike.

Belief in Creation and God gives me a great pupose in life. I ask those who have grown up with evolution....what is your purpose in life? Why do you continue to live and breath...when you die you lose it all, why look to gain more?

                                                        {MW} MS9

To become a better person with everything new I achieve, to be honest ;)

I'm only 23 and I already feel pretty satisfied with how far I've come, and I still feel like there is so much more I can experience... Travelling helps, adapting to different cultures, speaking the languages, etc. Next step for me is to join the army and learn how to fight, to risk my life to save others, and all that type of "extreme" things that no one has ever lived in my family or friends. Doesn't matter if I end up with a carreer or anything, I'd be in it for the XP :P

yes,    but what will you have done that really counts...we all die some day...and everything that you've done would have been a waste right?   who is going to remember you 100 years from now?   i know that nobody will know who i was....

                                                                            {MW} MS9

Why does that have to do with anything? Why are you scared that nobody will remember you in 100 years? :/

When I die, I'll deal with that when it actually happens, ya know ;) I'm not gonna waste my lifetime shitting my pants because of what-if's.. And life is not about climbing the Everest (it's been done now.... a LOT of times) or making a big discovery. If you strive to do only HUGE things you're gonna miss out on the more important, like taking care of your loved ones... carpe diem ;)

I agree. Enjoy life to its fullest.

Well SAID MandoSpy!!

Since when does believing in evolution make one an atheist?

I absolutely see what you're saying about the wonder of life. I do that sometimes too, just look around at everything and think "there's no way this is an accident". That's why I absolutely believe in intelligent design- through evolution.

In my experience, God doesn't work with fireworks and pizzazz. I'm a major science geek, and when you look at all the rules that govern the world we live in, the way everything works just like clockwork, everything interacting and doing its part to bring together all parts of life, it's just beautiful. Beautiful in its perfection, its subtlety, everything.

So why should creation be any different? Why can't it be that God created the rules for evolution that then brought about everything as we know it? That's the way I see it- just another rule of the natural world, like gravity or mitosis, that has been created and acts seemingly autonomously in the great puzzle of life. A sudden massive creation just doesn't seem like His style, looking around at the world today.

So I think creation was achieved through evolution, and that God undoubtedly engineered the whole process Himself. Being an evolutionist doesn't make me an atheist.

I must admit that I don’t normally respond to forums.  However, I have never appreciated when one person makes another feel “stupid” or “inattentive”- therefore, I cannot resist responding to this one.  First I must address this comment:

“You should really informed yourself from more official sources (the library? internet?), and study biology a bit more before saying it's all "speculations". OF COURSE nobody was there to witness the birth of our planet. Maybe if you'd pay more attention in class you would know? I dont know which grade you're in so don't take any offense.

Actually, I thought the question was quite interesting seeing that science proves theories based on facts.  Transitory fossils are highly questionable in science academia.  Even within the scientific community, there is disagreement and dialogue.  So the question is not stupid.  The last time that I looked both in the library and internet, and yes, even in biology classroom, there continues to be lively debate concerning evolution. 

Next in line is the statement: 

“But all of the questions you asked have answers.... no scientist would dare claim anything before having gathered all the necessary evidence.”

This is quite a naïve statement to make indeed.  For one, you have evolutionary scientist making one claim and you have creation or intelligent design scientist making another claim.  All have “evidence” to support their arguments.  Bottomline; regardless if you are an evolutionist or a creationist or intelligent design, you will base your position on belief/faith (knowing (fact and speculation), assenting, and trusting).

Finally, I will address the following comment:

“If science was as amateurish as you think it is, we wouldn't be able to send people on the moon or cure cancer.”

I am assuming that this comment was made in reference to the rc3222’s comment:
“But most of Evolution is just speculation, right?”

I did not read rc3222 commenting that science was amateurish.  The comment made was that evolution was speculation.  Science involves asking questions and finding answers.  Thus, we send men to the moon and we find cures.  But we don’t have all the answers (ie people are still dying of cancer).  Evolution is still a theory in the world of science.  Actually rc3222 correctly defined “theory.”

Main Entry: the•o•ry 
Pronunciation: 'thE-&-rE, 'thi(-&)r-E
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ries
Etymology: Late Latin theoria, from Greek theOria, from theOrein
1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2 : abstract thought : SPECULATION
3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>

Evolution will always be a theory in the scientific community for it defies logic “For every effect, there is a cause.”  Evolutionist have failed to define and/or factually address origin.  Where did the first cell or the first matter come from?   One must either affirm eternal or self-existing matter (evolution) or eternal, self-existing God (creation) or an  eternal higher being (intelligent design).  Thus pertaining to existence, one will ultimately base their position on the most reasonable explanation as science (evolution or creation or intelligent design) will never be able to prove by scientific “fact” alone the question of origin (at least in this world as we know it).

I did not provoke anyone.  I sat quietly in my seat while listening to my class talk about the evil, ignorant Christians who are apparently conspiring to take over the world, until it got to the point where I needed to speak up.  I am a very shy, nonconfrontational person, and if you knew me you would never suggest that I would provoke anyone about anything.

If by claiming to be open-minded, I gave you the impression that I was set myself above others intellectually, then I apologize.  Proving myself anyone's superior is not my intention.  All I want is to be treated with respect, not be accused of being close-minded, and not be told that I am uneducated.  My college major is Anthropology (aka Human Evolution), so it's not as if I haven't given a great deal of thought to this.  Not to say that you are wrong in believing it.  I have no problem with any belief system.  I have a problem with people telling me my own opinion is ignorant, dangerous, evil, etc.

i agree with you on alot k1banjo......but there is no need for anyone gettin up tight on anything. Let's try to keep it on low tone conversation...so nobody will be offended and also this thread get frozen.   Thanx for you co-operation.... :)    and welcome to the boards!

                                                                       {MW} MS9

Spot on. Creation of the world is a "non-essential" (not necessary for salvation).

Anywho, Banjo, you are SO eloquent with your words! You just wrote my whole thought process down. ;)

On a side note.... What kind of music do you play? Old time?

Sir MandalorianSpy9, I humbly concur with your assessment.  In fact, I owe Daenna a very sincere apology as I did exactly what I stated an opposition too.  Thanks for the welcome and the lively dialogue.

That's fine :) I didn't take any offense from your post and I don't believe you need my reply to it. I made myself look like a fool to begin with because I wanted so bad that people understand my point of view. In a way I've bottled in a lot of bitterness against people on other forums who usually troll around messing with other people's minds... Fighting against that is just playing the game actually :(

But I won't keep discussing this topic anymore. It's ok to disagree to some point, but I find that when there isn't much to concur about with the majority, there's no need for me to hang around. That's how sociability works anyway.... I reek of agnostism :P and I hold a lot of grudges against the christianoid institutions. So I won't mind your reactions anymore, I'll just focus on the more starwarsy things in this message board ;)

RC, thanks for the compliment, but I find that my words are spoken (or written) much too quickly - kinda like Fi, if you know what I mean.  OLD Time - New Time?!?!?!? Actually a banjo is quite a versatile instrument as it as been known to clear a room much quicker than any Commando  weapon.  BTW, nice photo.  He looks mean.  Does he bite?

Daenna, thank you for accepting my apology.  I did not view you as a fool, but as one that is passionate about your position.  It DOES hurt to be misunderstood.  Your point of view is important because you are important.  What one believes greatly affects the quality of their life in this present age and comes with consequences (positive and negative).  Therefore, no one's belief system should be taken lightly or the subject of humiliation.  I think that in our passion for truth, we can be overzealous and end up inadvertently hurting people; thus, casting a shadow on the very truth that is so dear to us.

Oh, I LIKE banjo music! And no, he, Tank, doesn't bite... He slobbers.

Welcome to the boards k1banjo!! :) You have great opinions as I see. You certainly will be respected and welcome here. :D

                                                                     {MW} TW

Slobbers..... I think that I would run if he was getting "tanked" up with a drink of water.

Has anyone ever watched the South Park theory on evolution? What Mr. Garrison talks about? I'm sure most people hate that show but... evolution is a silly theory to me. Just because some animals cross breed (weird) doesn't make it evolution hahahahahaha.

I think it is. Because some traits are inherited, then they get inherited again, and again, and so on. By then, theres a slight change in people. So, then, theve evolved. There ya have it. Evolution.

(BTW. I think (though it isnt any business of yours) That God makes things. Through evolution. take some genes here. add some there. and you got something new.)