Topic: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Have people actually died for scientology? (I've never heard if someone has or not.) Was it fighting for what they believe, or in a religous war?

I was going to stay out of this buuuuut...

One of the things that always gets me is how limited the human ability is to truly understand the nature of reality.

I am a big Fan of Arthur Schopenhauer, a dead German philosopher, who believed that reality is totally subjective.

(Read a book) 

Anyway, not unlike Plato and Aristotle, what we have here is a debate about epistemology. How do we know what we know? What is the nature of knowledge and how does it come to be.
For me it's like Kevin Smith's character says in his movie DOGMA... "It doesn't matter what you believe, it's THAT you believe."  I mean we all have to believe in something, even if it is believing in nothing in principle, and we all have to live our lives as if we understand what is going on to some extent. It become ugly when people try to tell others what it is they are supposed to believe.

I went to grad. school and studied anthropology. I believe evolution is what got us here today. I BELIEVE IT. I don't know it is true. God may be there pulling all the strings but I just don't know and I think people that are overconfident in either direction are waaaaaay off base.  I mean, just look at the economy. If we have it all figured out why are we in such dire straights? Why do bad things happen to good people. Why do some women have to bleach their lip hair?

Does anyone see where I am going with this?

I think it's cool that we can have this kind of discussion here at the BFFC but I also think it's important to realize that some questions have multiple answers, or in some cases, no answers at all.:)

I'm sorry but the sources on Zeitgeist are bogus.  Most of them aren't even scholarly and have been rejected by many scholars Christian and non-Christian alike. 

I have not watched the entire thing as it is late right now but I will get to it.  The one thing that immediately jumped to me was how Christ was copied off of Horus as he was born on the 25th and 3 kings visited him.  Referring to the stars.

Christ was even born on the 25th.  That is undeniable.  This was something the Catholic church came up with.

And there were more likely than not more than 3 "Magi" visiting Christ (not kings as Zeitgeist claims).  The bible never specified, this was again the Catholic church coming up with a popular story which was probably attributed the mentioning of the 3 gifts the magi brought.  These are among some of the allegations the director of Zeigeist makes that are misleading and false.  Here is a blog that an Atheist made concerning parallels between Horus and Christ.

Yes, three kings and the 25th were arbitrary decisions. The kings were based off of the gifts, I'm not sure the reasoning on the 25th, but its common knowledge that we don't know his exact birthdate.

Because humans are highly sinful and fallible. Thats why there is greed, and thats why our economy is so screwed over--people were foolish and frivolous with their money, and its hurting all of us.

Bad things happen to everyone. Sin and consequence don't distinguish their victims.

Oh, and Val--would you say Mohammad existed?

I think that was the Catholic church trying to draw people away from the pagan festivals taking place during the time.

Just as a general interesting, and slightly off-topic; I do apologise, fact, it is a common misconception that the general populace ever thought the world was flat and certainly never "everyone" thought it was so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

But yes.

Scepticism leads me to believe that if a Christian were to find evidence that Jesus (person) was never born and never existed, the Christians would cover that evidence up in any way possible.

That however is scepticism and the point of faith is to ignore scepticism.
Unfortunately that is something those who do not believe cannot comprehend.
After all how could you possibly ignore reason and evidence in the face of something as trivial as a thought.

I had quite a magnum opus planned for the rest of this post but I think I shall save it. At least for now.

You could possibly be right, yet you could be wrong. It depends on how trustworthy and honest that Christian is.

One would hope that they would realise that regardless of whether Jesus exists or not, the ethics he taught are still worth following and that the truth will set one free.

But the real question is: Do you believe in the Tooth Fairy?

Sorry had to lighten the mood - couldn't help myself :P

Yes I do.

Well, collectively, I've gotten more than 5,000 yen($50) from the tooth fairy...but but then she put a bunch of stinking braces on my mouth so I am mad a her...LOL

Well, as often happens, people quote only those sections which support their position. I also asked the question "why do some women bleach the hair on their upper lips?"

My point was that it is stupid for humans to think they can impose too much of their own preconceptions on reality. Some questions have multiple answers or now answers at all.

Zen riddle: What is the sound of one hand clapping? yada, yada, yada...
These are called Koan in Japanese and there are a million of them. They are designed to make the mind think laterally not linearly.

And furthermore, why does the answer to those two questions alone have to be "Bad things happen to everyone. Sin and consequence don't distinguish their victims. " Why does sin have to have anything to do with it at all? Are there absolutely no other alternatives? Is it not possible that other belief systems are able to account for the nature of reality?

I guess I am mostly trying to make a case against closed-mindedness and intolerance.

And the tooth fairy thing...well, I have a really messed up image of what the tooth fairy looks like.

I have no idea why but as a child I thought that the tooth fairy looked like Muftak from the cantina scene
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Muftak

I know, I know how f...ed up is that? I was a weird kid.

Sin relates because bad consequences naturally stem from some one's sin. If someone murders or steals from someone, thats both a crime and a sin. If a friend lies about you and hurts you, thats not a crime, but is still a sin. Thats why sin relates.

I am still waiting for Val to show the evidence to the question i asked.

I admire your devotion. I also see that this isn't going anywhere. Respectfully, we have our opinions. I'm gonna try not posting on here anymore, I dont think anyones changing anyone elses mind.

Christians are not more ignorant than anyone else, i meant humanity in general. When people grow up being taught a religion, it is difficult to tell them that it may be wrong.

Your question doesnt require evidence, it is poorly written. Humans DO NOT understand everything in the universe and we DEFINITELY do not manipulate it. You may be trying to ask something else...

Sorry for quadruple posting, I'm trying to address everyone's questions and concerns.

In conclusion, let me just say that I have nothing against believers. At all. I admire your faith and commend how you fight so feverishly for a cause. I really dont think anyones going to change minds here, we can all say our sources are bogus, that we lack evidence, etc. Come on guys, were not going anywhere here. I hope no one looks at anyone any different now.

Good point Val (The very last post). In fact, all this is off from the topic's first question. Perhaps this topic should be closed...

Course.  You'll always be Lord of the Role Playing Section and one good RPer.  Looking forward to our next board epic we are bound to have sooner or later.  These little one are great and all but they get a bit tiresome after a while.

Yay! Now I can not have to discus all this without God being disappointed in me for quitting! Good Idea. I guess.

I just can't get behind your concept of sin.

To quote Joseph Campbell "Whatever you do is evil to someone"

Who are we to decide what is evil and good?

By your standards I have lived most of my life in sin and I will burn in hell forever for it.  What the f..k kind of religion is that!? I think Jesus would be put off by most modern christians.  What about love and understanding and grace.

This is not the place to quote scripture but there is a lot there that I think a lot of christians overlook...I think you are referencing  modern christian dogma when you refer to sin. If that is the case then I think a lot of christians are south bound as well. The Bible, the church, the life of christ and modern, human, christians are all different things.

Who are we to judge, who are we to decide what is sin?

Not at all. Everyone has sinned their whole lives, more or less. I doubt many people have gone a day without sinning in some way. Difference is, whether you've accepted that Christ died to forgive you for your sins. Thats the only difference between me and you, here.

The "Christians" that he would be put off by are those that aren't actually Christians, or aren't living like Christians. And there are a LOT of those--genuine Christians who really don't live like it AT ALL.

I'm not saying I'm not sinful--Christians are too. We just are taught in clearer terms what the Bible defines as wrong.

For example, modern Christians are known for being anti-gay. Thats grown too far, to the point of many "Christians" hating gays themselves. Its true, its Biblically wrong. But that doesn't mean we can't love them. Many Christians have become way too condemning, and not loving enough. Christ WOULD be disgusted with many Christians. Even genuine Christians, I admit it. But we know where our hope of salvation comes from.

Salvation...why do we need that in the first place?

It seems really cruel from my perspective that God even set up a situation where it was possible for people to burn and writhe in agony for eternity. (But this goes back to free will and a whole can of worms.)

"in clearer terms"... well, people can be crystal clear abut their beliefs and still be wrong.

Bringing the topic back to the original post. Many people are very clear that evolution is how we got here today. They are very clear that its mechanism is natural selection and that natural selection functions through very clear processes. They are very clear but I am willing to say that that does not make them right. I extend the same measure toward christians. Just because your religion in "clear" does not make it, or the belief system behind it, right.

I think I said this earlier but the thing that scares me the most about christians is how certain they are, how confident, how arrogant  they are that they have it all figured out. Having it all figured out is totally impossible scientifically. If scientists can accept that they don't know everything why can't christians?

I believe in God. LOL! That's the real question here! Maybe someday I might create a topic where we can discuss our views or where it is "legal"(LOL) to force our views on others. Or maybe I'll make an "evangelistic" topic to share our beliefs with others. I really don't want to have to start anything like those though. Any brave souls willing to do that? *looks up at you wearily*

It's kind of difficult to figure out how much of this is sarcastic and how much of it is sincere.

Surely, you're not proposing a forum where people preach the gospel here at the BFFC!?

Are there not more proper venues for such discussions? 

And I think if you did you may end up having conversations with yourselves anyway so what would be the point?

Not trying to step on any toes here just wondering.

I find it hard to separate the sarcasm, jokes, and sincerity myself...I'm very distracted at the moment. Sorry. I do believe in God though! LOL

Not at all. If you understand that God is perfect, then you understand that God can't be in the presence of sin, nor can he let sin go unpunished. But because he's also a Loving God, he provided a way out, a way to cleanse the sin from anyone willing to accept it. But so sacrifice less than a perfect one would be acceptable--it would fall short. Thats why Christ died.

Its not cruel, its just God is holy and Perfect. He CAN'T live with sin--and it can't go unpunished. But he gives a way out. He could have said, when Adam and Eve messed up, "Ok, they screwed up, I tried to give them free will, and they abused it. Lets wipe the slate clean and start over."

It all comes down to understanding the core of who God is.

......

Second part--admittedly, many Christians are "holierthan though" and in general arrogant, but none should claim to know it all. We don't. I have NO idea why God has done most of what he has done, or how. But I know enough. Thats it. Christians seem like they know it all because yes, we're confident in salvation. Because faith in Christ simply makes sense once you accept it, or truly realize you need it.

One of my teachers has a friend, she's about 27ish, who came in and shared her story. I'll shorten it, but give the gist.

Junior or senior year of prom--guy she went with raped her. She didn't tell anyone. In college, a guy taking her home from a party also raped her. Again, she didn't tell anyone. Starting in high school, and leading into college and after she left/had to leave (not sure) she was HEAVILY addicted to drugs and alcohol. Her alcohol tolerance is incredibly high. She didn't come out and say it, but indicated she was raped at least one other time. She ended up in the hospital a number of times, and was in jail on suicide watch less than a year ago. She basically said she did things she wasn't proud of for her addictions.

She had a number of Christian friends throughout much of that, who stuck with her even when they found her in horrifying situations. She tried rehab a number of times. And she told us that she eventually realized that she needed God. She knew NOTHING about scripture or theology, or anything, just that without him, she'd destroy herself.

She's not completely clean, but she's improved a lot. It was horrifying to hear what she want through, and see how drastically her life has changed. Thats part of why we are so certain. Miracles like that.

Although I appreciate the message of your story I have a few of my own that have nothing to do with God. People can turn their lives around without God and do so all the time and you can't tell them, or me, otherwise.

As for it being a "miracle," well I am a very long way away from believing that was a miracle or that they happen at all these days. I believe that more often than not, it's as Ben Kenobi says, " many of the truths we cling to depend largely upon our point of view." Five different people can see the exact same thing and have five different explanations for what they saw.  Nine times out of ten christians are unwilling to see any other possibility than the hand of God at work.

The funny thing is that my brother is an atheist and basically hates christians, when he and I talk I am usually trying to open his mind up to the possibility of the existence of God....talk about Devil's advocate :)

I just dislike orginized religion in general. Its so corrupted. Priests raping little boys, donated money going in the pockets of the preacher rather then the needy.... One thing I just really hate is something I've noticed. Christians will tell you that "Jesus loves you/everyone". But they don't reflect that statement at all. Really, what they're saying is "Jesus loves you...but only if your not poor, gay, a minority, belong to another religion, or think about anything sex related". If Jesus was really the guy they say he was, then he would love everyone, no matter what. Not just pick and choose. =/

Yeah, but she herself said she was basically destroying herself, and could see no way out.

And Christians are frequently a horrible standard, even the best of us. Judging Christ by Christians is NOT right. And yes, he loves everyone, but he hates sin. Sadly, many Christians kinda combine them.

As I mentioned above, there are many success stories that do not involve Christ or christianity. In American culture we are programmed to think in Judeo-Christian terms. In another culture, like where I live, people could just as easily claim that Buddha, in some sects, showed them the way. In Pure Land Buddhism Buddha is a lot like Christ. He helps people who are worthy. Yet in India they might claim that Vishnu was there to aid them in their turn around. And as crazy it it sounds, a lot of Scientologists are convinced that they live a better life because they joined the religion.

I mean, there is just no way to be sure. You Have to decide on your own.  And someone telling you that you are going to burn in hell for not believing the way you do  just sounds really closed-minded and self-centered.
And the points raised by CeciliaCrimsondragonFett contribute to my insistence that there is no one way to understand the nature of reality. You can't have it both ways. You can't have a God that is good and omnipotent and at the same time one who allows the terrible things that happen to do so even within the church itself. There is just no logical argument to be made for that.

God commands us to love the sinner, but hate the sin. God does love everyone. Sadly many "Christians" are out there for themselves. I hate to admit it, but my current pastor is just here for the good pay and the respect that he wrongly demands from everyone.

As for the whole sin thing, everyone sins. It's human nature. You shouldn't go to Hell for being human.

And the thing that bothers me the most is the lack of evidence of God. There is absoutely no evidence, but billions of people believe in a God.

I don't "just believe". I've went out and found proof.

And that's your opinion. Nobody can change it except you. We can't tell you that "God isn't real, get over it kid", but at the same time, you can't tell us "Come worship Jesus or be damned!" because it may be our belief that A) there is no God B) there is no Hell C) Jesus was a loony

Yeah, so now we're all chummy friends! That's what's so great about BFFC! And we don't even know why!

But just think, what if you're wrong? What a mistake that would be. If I'm wrong though, what have I got to lose? A purposeless existence? So what.

Well, what proof have you found? And I mean serious facts, not some hunch or belief.

I've listed a few, but you asked for more, so.

Did you know the Bible talks about "springs in the sea"? It does. Scientists didn't even know that there were springs in the sea until about 60 years ago, and yet God spoke about the in the book of Job.

Then there's the proof for the world-wide flood, which I could make an entire museum for. As a taste, how do you get fossilized trees standing strait up through multiple rock layers? That happened at Spirit Lake in Washington after Mt. Saint Helen's blew her top, and it didn't take millions of years for that to happen, so why couldn't a flood have caused the ones in the rock layers?

Don't even get me started on carbon dating.

And don't forget about salt build up in the ocean! Did you know that the oceans get saltier every year? It's a fact that a certain amount of salt is formed in the oceans each year. If the world was so old, there would be a lot more salt in the ocean than there is today. If you started with fresh water and went to the salt we have today, then the world should be about six thousand years old or so.

If these facts are right, and the Bible is correct about scientific matters, then what's to say it's wrong about spiritual matters as well?

How do you know everything in the Bible is correct? It could have been written by a crazy hobo guy back a long time ago, and then somebody picks it up and reads it, and goes "Hey I'll believe everything this random book says" I mean, seriously. By the way, the entire Protestant religion was created just so King Henry the 8th could get a divorce from his wife, and now Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland kill each other every day. Then there was the Crusades, the Holocaust, and now Osama bin Laden is twisting Islam into making a jihad against the U.S. All religion does is cause suffering, and waste time.

not sure where you heard that.

A worldwide flood might not take millions of years, but it sure as Hell won't take just a few days. You would have to completely melt the polar ice caps (both north and south, which coincidentally should take hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years), and even then the entire world won't be flooded. But if there was a worldwide flood, how are we here? How is there even a record of a worldwide flood?

Carbon dating is one of the most accurate sources of age measuring out there.

Evidence from rocks that eroded in the salt water prove the Earth to be about 4 billion years old, or was it 6? Either way, this is still a relatively young planet, and if the Earth is only about 6,000 years old, how come there is evidence showing of dinosaurs roaming the Earth 65,000,000 years before the first humans came to be? Considering that human beings have only been around for about 1.2 million years (scientific evidence, can't beat it) I believe that completely eradicates your theory on the age of the world.

There is no proof, only speculation.

A bunch of hobos, not just one. Correct on the Henry VIII reason for Protestantism. The Crusades was a feeble attempt for the Papacy and the Church of Christianity to reclaim the Holy Land, where it was believed that Jesus was born and died, from the Muslims. Yeah, all religion really does is cause conflict. You know that Pope Innocence II or III, I don't remember which one, recruited soldiers for the Christians during the second Crusade by telling them that they were guaranteed entry to Heaven as long as they fought for him?

I could answer you guys, but to what end? We'll just go back and forth into eternity. Oh, wait, you don't believe in eternity. Oh, well. You guys need to be a little more tolerant. We all do.

And yes, the Catholics are messed up(in my view), but I don't know why the people say the Crusades were so bad. I mean, the Muslims invaded in the west, and the Christians defended and pressed forward in the east.

And what "scientific evidence" do you mean?

The world only has only been completely covered in water ONCE and that was very early in Earths history. The Earth had cooled down enough to harden crust by then, and water vapor was introduced in the form of crashing comets. Eventually (after a very long time) the Earths surface area became 100% water. There wasn't a flood, and it didn't happen overnight. And there was no recorded history for it because there was no life on Earth at all then. And the water didn't go anywhere. The raging volcanoes beneath the ocean surface continued to erupt until they broke sealevel, and continued to erupt. And thus the early continents were born.

I hope you know that, since about when the Scientific Revolution began, the question to understand who we are and where we came from (this actually goes back to the Renaissance) has always been attempted to be answered. And in the coming to that answer, loads of information about the rest of the planet has been discovered.

Actual religion is a great thing, it's the zealots and manipulators who twist it and their followers who cause the problems.

Cece, you talk as if it is fact. We're back to story number one now. It is just a theory as is everything else as to how life began.

As to a record of a ww flood, how about "Billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water, all over the earth." And about the ""How are we here?" question, it's Noah's Ark. Well, it was actually God's Ark, but Noah built it.

I can't believe people are still posting in this.  It's only a debate that will go back and forth and back and forth.  Rinse and repeat.  Presuppositions are nearly impossible to overcome when debating such topics.  Think what you will, but there is no point trying to convince the other that your perspective is right and their's is wrong as people here are obviously rooted in what they believe.

I told them that like twice now, but they just don't listen to me.

No don't try to delegate blame here.  We all are at fault for even continuing to post in this thread.

Yes I now stop.