Topic: Do you believe in God or evolution?

Why organized religion makes sense is that you simply can't make God be what you want him to be. That simply doesn't work. You can't judge people based on their beliefs, but that doesn't mean they're all right. That to is impossible.

I agree about people who claim to be "Christians" are aren't. There are a LOT of those.

Some people believe what they want to believe (which it seems to me is what your doing, correct) but some believe what they know is right. Thats the key difference.

And God very well may have a sense of humor, or irony. When your the most intelligent being in the universe, it probably gets a bit lonely, especially before humanity.

Although I get your point it doesn't really make sense...no one, in their right, mind believes something that they know to be wrong. So you are saying that the "key difference" between my believing in something and a christian believing in something is that I believe in something that I don't think is right?  That really does not compute for me.

I think my conception of God gives him a great deal more credit than most christians'. I am rather confident that he alone decides the nature of reality, not humans reading a book...

Speaking of which, I read the good book a great deal and as anyone who does so can tell you, Jesus spoke in parables and riddles. He did this for a number of reasons. not the least of which was that he wanted to separate the wheat from the chaff (so to speak) in a spiritual sense. Ultimately, only Jesus and his dad knew what was what. There was no church, no organizational structure there were just people trying to learn how to live a good and just life.

A good example of this is the idea that is you commit suicide you automatically go straight to hell, no questions asked.   To believe this is to diminish the power of God to determine the nature of reality. Only God decides if a person goes to Heaven or Hell and for his own reasons. Anyone who thinks otherwise has a very limited and dim perspective of the all mighty.

I do understand that organized religion plays an important sociological role in the modern world but in the end people like the BTK serial killer was a church goer and look at what kind of person he turned out to be!

Ok, the quotes are getting long. So I'll start straight.

No, I was saying the difference between someone who believes what they want versus what is taught is simple--do you KNOW what you believe is true. The "book" that Christians live by has its significance in the fact that its writing was guided by God's hand. Our "reading a book" has nothing to do with salvation--it was his writing it. Where do you base your faith? It has no foundation, no confirmation.

You believe it, I can believe anything. Where is the backing?

What I'd say is the problem with your belief is that it centers around the belief that God will accept anyone. Theres no standard, no action, no specific belief. Thats not how God is portrayed most any religion--they all center around faith and a specific standard. Whether it is Christianity, Judaism, or Islam, they all hold true to that.

And as you have tied Jesus to the God you believe in, I presume you mean it to be the same God all three religions worship.

Going to church, and organized religion does not mean much. And I disagree with the suicide=hell theory. God does decide who goes to heaven and hell, but not based on whether you've met a specific standard, or arbitrary.

On the Contrary, it is a more accurate view of God--its narrower, yes. But God is a Holy and Pure God--he cannot have sin in his presence. And we all sin. That is something I imagine we agree on. So how do you overcome sin? In ancient times, it was a simple sacrifice, and following the laws set by God and the Priests (for the Israelites), and to believe the Messiah was coming. When he came, though, his death, as a pure and holy sacrifice, infinitely more significant than a pigeon or lamb, atttoned all sin, past, present, and future. You only need to accept his gift.

That is where the clearest view of God is--a Holy, Loving God will to subject His son, and in a sense, himself, to the most horrific punishment imaginable--beyond crucification, Christ had to bear sin, as a perfect being. All you have to do is accept the gift.

It is a standard, and clear way in, an easy way in, but not a open gate.

He did speak in riddles and parables, because speaking forthrightly could have gotten him killed. He wanted people to think, to understand what he was teaching.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/columnist/vergano/2009-02-01-hobbit-bones_N.htm?se=yahoorefer

fine example to prove evolution.

Not really, considering the Pygmies of the Congo in Africa are similar, but they're just as smart a everyone else. Or if you want to be stubborn, there's always monkeys with arthritis, like good 'ole Lucy!

This concept of "truth" still eludes me. Who are you, or any other christian or anyone else for that matter, to tell me what truth is?

There is no truth. There is only belief.  People, christians, used to burn people alive because they did not agree with the church. What kind of truth is that.  AND, the same thing happens today. Why can't people get it through their heads that they don't know everything. I am so sick and tired of the self-righteous people telling me what reality is about. If you really have it all figured out then the rest of us are all f---cked. If you are happy with that idea then good for you. I believe that if God is there he is way more powerful and omnipotent than most christians think.   The church, the Bible, the Judeo-christian-islamic tradition are all human constructions. God decides everything despite some small pathetic bible study or sermon.

I am not going to contribute to this thread anymore because it makes me believe less in God not more. The more I talk with christians the less I want to be one.

I think truth is subjective and there is no one single exact way to experience it. And I think it is very unchristian to try to force one's beliefs on others and I think most christians should be more flexible about the nature of God and his place in the universe. This world is such a hard place to live in and people can be so cruel, why would you want to tell someone they are going to hell because they do not believe the same way you do?

What we need is more compassion and understanding and tolerance and more understanding...not more myopic, closed-minded dogmatic assertion of religious beliefs.

Basically, I hate anyone who thinks they have it all figured out. The most stupid people I know are those who think they are the smartest. Absolutism will be the end of us all.

Ah yes.
I believe it was Socrates who said it was the wise man who admits he knows nothing.
I have taken to observing for the moment, so please excuse me, I just wanted to add that little reference to quotation there.

you're clearly missing my point. the point is to show that man evolved from these pygmies into better beings on their own. not by some omniscient being who still isn't proven to have existed.

Christians tried to prove the existence of God and failed. Atheists tried to disprove God and met a similar failure.
You cannot prove him, yet you cannot entirely disprove him either.

Addressing both proof and truth--no, we cannot offer "scientific proof" that proves beyond the shadow of a doubt for ANYONE that God exists. But rationally, it makes a lot more sense than, as a background I once saw, "There was nothing....and then nothing exploded, and made everything".

Admittedly, there have been a lot of "Christians" that committed atrocious acts. But Christian organizations are often the first to aid or care for disaster victims. Some of the largest aid organizations are Christian-run (ie, Samaritans Purse, etc).

True, it is belief. But it is a belief with a backing far greater than arbitrary belief and hope that God likes you enough to tell Peter to open up. Its a belief that God loves everyone enough to send his Son, and by extension, part of himself, to die. Its about love, and a gift. Thats it. It is entirely separate from the groups that have committed crimes, and also the groups that have shown great love. Because what really matters is you and God.

Nothing else. There are hundreds of supernatural healings that have occurred, that no science can explain. Most of creation science can't fully explain.

I hate trying to explain it, because its never enough. And I'm far from the most knowledgeable as far as defending Christianity goes. I very well may have made things worse, which wasn't my intention. But to me, believing in a God YOU ascribe properties to, and who has no conditions or boundaries, makes no sense. I had to respond to that.

I thought that was a great example. The evidence was right there staring everyone in the face. Fett_II, dont bother at this point. I dont think anyones going to change their mind.

So now you are being racist! The Pygmies are nice people who are probably more polite than most Americans, and yet you are calling them inferiors! Hitler did too. I should call the hotline on you for being so mean to them! If I said that about black people, I'd be in jail!

The Smithsonian has a nice collection of "prehistoric" skulls right? Most people don't know that in the 1800's the Aboriganies of Australia were hunted and slaughtered by the thousands to get they're skulls and sell them to museums. Next thing you know, they'll be out there killing pygmies.

And I have no reason to believe that God used Evolution to create. I do not believe in macro evolution AT ALL.

You're putting words in peoples mouths again. You did that to me several times and thats why I stopped posting. Stop taking peoples words out of context and twisting them around into bad things. You're only going to make enemys from it.

...You've got to be kidding me...

FIRSTLY, you are insulting Americans. I am an American and damn proud. You are therefore insulting me.

SECONDLY, you dare compare me to Adolf Hitler? I suggest you quit while youre ahead. Now.

THIRDLY, the scientists who work at the Smithsonian are not fools. I'd bet my life that they can tell whether a skull is 10 weeks old or 10,000 years old.

I'm proud of being an American too, but that doesn't mean we're all incredibly polite....there are plenty of bad, or even just plain rude, people.

Were you saying I am not a Christian (I'm not angry, just trying to understand your post). I was trying to make a point to Atheists (not convert) that you cannot disprove God.

Like me. LOL. How am I putting word in mouths? I'm trying to be as correct as possible. And I'm sorry if I made Americans out to be impolite, but I never meant to insult them! I only meant that the Pygmies of the Congo are very polite. I didn't mean to "compare" you to Hitler, just to say he thought certain races of people were inferior too(not meaning to put words in your mouth!). And who said the scientists dated the skulls? They just ordered and bought them from Australia.

By the way, I'm really a nice person in real life, it's just...I don't know. I reckon I have just as many friends as I do enemies. 0. Like Jango said I guess. "No friends no enemies. Only allies and adversaries." I hate that.

Now that is ONE big question !!!!
Does bats believe in God .No ...not really,,as Man-Kind has gone though becoming the Moden Mankind
somewhere along the way ,,Man,,  either a Default Gene or part of the Disign,,has one thing that differ us
from Animals it is call a Conscience,,the first thing Man was to DRAW,,they becames Gods,,and it
does guide Man kind
As for the Tem Comments,,all People in way have these but one is more important to other Races
Like to the Westen World,,Killing is a bad sin ,and other Cultures it 's OK but ,Going with another  Man's Wife
is a bad thing  but that's the way things are

Just a little interesting fact that most of you probably know the commandment is sometimes incorrectly stated as "Do not Kill", would more accurately be translated as "Do Not Murder".  So there is another thing the Catholic church has changed slightly.  Random fact for the day.

Not either way, I didn't know/remember. Just responding to you saying that it wasn't proveable, as thats a common point in discussions like this. Sorry for the confusion.

I'm glad I stayed out of you twos' little discussion. Thats one good point to me at least...and patience. I have a lot of patience.

Oh, Seco. Next post, realize what you type before clicking the 'Submit' button.

The point I was trying to make was he isn't disproveable.

No, he's not. I wasn't that sure what you were saying at first, but your right. He's not.

Oh no...What did I say wrong now. :(

I was responding to a belief in a God you can custom tailor, and figured the faith aspect might not go over well. And those three religions, in essence, worship the same God, historically, and make up over 1/3 of the religious population of the world. Figured that might hold some weight, if faith wouldn't. That having a God with no standard contradicts most every established religion.

And that was my main point--Christianity is simple, only revolving around faith and love--no complex rituals, no "do this so often", etc. Just faith, and the belief that you are loved. Not too hard, is it? (directed to the discussion in general).

And MH--I know what you were trying to say, I just didn't at first.

All wrongness in bold.

Not to mention that The Smithsonian also actually does research, hence why they have their jobs. It isn't as simple as "ordering a ton from Australia."

*walks in*

Alright, i belive in God because...

Woah, whats going on here?

Racism?  Killing austrailans and getting skulls?

The end of the world really is 2012!!!

*Runs around like an idiot*

1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.
Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.8 Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.

2. Does God exist? The universe had a start - what caused it?
Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light, which we now call the Big Bang. This was the singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself.

Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."9

Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in Physics, said at the moment of this explosion, "the universe was about a hundred thousands million degrees Centigrade...and the universe was filled with light."10

The universe has not always existed. It had a start...what caused that? Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter.

3. Does God exist? The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?
Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.

How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?

"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."12

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."13

4. Does God exist? The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.
All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billions of these letters in every human cell!!

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.14

Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.
I was an atheist at one time. And like most atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.

6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God revealing himself to us.
Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.

He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."15 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."16

What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.17

Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although God views us as sinners, worthy of his punishment, his love for us ruled and God came up with a different plan. God himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but many loving fathers would gladly trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible says that the reason we would love God is because he first loved us.

Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you."18 This is God, in action.

Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."19

God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ. If you need to know more about Jesus and reasons to believe in him, please see: Beyond Blind Faith.

^^^^^^Read what he said Again. Twice.

He doesnt force us to believe in him? Either we do....or we go to 'Hell'. Citing Jesus Christ as proof of God's existence isn't really right either. Chances are he didnt exist. And the perfect distance from the Sun and all that stuff is just life striving to exist. Not an invisible man in the sky who made it happen. When a flower leans away from the shadows and towards the sun, that isnt God moving it towards the sun. That is the flower trying to get more sunlight for photosynthesis.
The human brain is the result of many, many years of evolution. Not God giving us a perfect brain. Why dont animals have greater brains then?
You sure state alot of facts there...but I dont see how it proves God's existence. In fact, I could use that information to DISprove him. You state facts and then they 'theyre like that because God did it.' Thats going the easy route. We can all just say "Life is the way it is because God made it that way". Or...we can supply reasonable, scientific evidence to the fact of why life is the way it is.

Thats like saying Mohamed didn't exist. He started one of the largest religions in the world, our timestamp of BC WAS named after him, and wars have been fought in his name. And your saying he didn't exist? That has to be one of the more ridiculous statements made in here yet. No one, not the most intelligent men to exist, have denied his existence. They may disagree on what he was, but never his existence.

So life, striving to exist, made a PLANET exist at the exact right distance. The microscopic organisms that eventually evolved, they were the life striving to exist, and made sure the earth was in the right place. Chance, I can understand, because chance could theoretically make sense, in some aspects. But LIFE? Come on.

Science, as important as it is, can't explain more than it can. They don't understand the human body, they don't understand many of the laws of the universe. You go from saying life positioned our planet to saying everything can be explained by reasonable, scientific evidence? Be consistent.

Animals don't need greater brains. God only chose to create species of Human level sentience. That more disproves evolution--if we could have evolved this much, intellectually, why no other species.

No, God doesn't move the flower towards the sun. But the planet doesn't exactly qualify as a life form.

If you call the fact that punishment exists forcing, then everyone forces you to pass school or fail, to show up for work or get fired, to acquire money or starve, to follow laws or be arrested. It's simply the nature of everything--all actions have consequences. Its just that a decision to follow Christ or not has the greatest consequences of all.

I mean, the core of the Big Bang theory is, that there was nothing, and then nothing exploded. But incredibly simply. Its like a vacuum sealed, envionmentally controlled environement existing, being completely empty of anything, and a supercomputer showing up. Does that fit with the carefully regulated rules of science? Its the biggest guess in the history of the world!

The core issue with Christ is this: He was a Liar, a Lunatic, or Lord.

Many people say he wasn't God, but was a good man. But because he said he was God, then he was either

A). Insane. If he was insane, everything he said should be discounted, and he can't be considered a good man.
or
B). A liar. If he was a liar, then he wasn't really a good man, and nothing he said can be given any credit.

So last option--Lord. Its the only thing that fits.

Science explains so little, and asks you to accept so much. Faith explains everything, and asks you to accept very little. Is it so hard?

Sorry if I over-reacted but insulting a whole people group isn't just conversation to me. And the Smithies didn't NEED to do any research. "The skulls were obviously a missing link." Nobody even found out they did that until rather recently. Remember that was back in the 19th century.(1800's for those of you who go or went to public school)

Our Time stamp is so wrong its not even funny. It has been changed so many times... Give me one piece of hard credible evidence he existed. And i dont mean the religion he 'started'. I mean his tomb, the True Cross, a CREDIBLE historian mentioning him. Anything...

Wars being fought in his name DOES NOT prove he existed, THAT is one of the most ridiculous things said in here. Youre saying No one has denied his existence? NOT EVEN THE MOST INTELLIGENT MEN? Youre joking right? He is denied EVERY DAY by athiests and people of other religions. You should have thought before saying all that.

Are you kidding? SCIENCE strives to explain everything and doesnt ask you to accept ANYTHING. It encourages you to create your own theories and hypothesis based on your thoughts and explanations. FAITH however explains everything and asks you to ACCEPT everything it says or you go to hell.

Many religions out there acknowledge that Jesus Christ was in fact a historical persons.  Muslims state he was a prophet again the key difference being he was man as opposed to the Christian belief in which he was the Son of God. 

The earliest written reference of Jesus Christ was by Pliny the younger.  The governor of some state over in the middle East I believe.  Not sure, will have to check that.  That was around 100 AD.  Another prominent one was by an Orthodox Jew around 400 AD cannot remember his name. 

The most prominent relic would have to be the headboard of Christ.  The translations are accurate to what we have.  I doubt the validity of the Shroud of Turin.  A reason that comes to my mind as a reason we don't have all these relics is that the Pharisees of the time were looking to wipe this man off the map as what he was speaking was heresy according to the priests of the time.  My opinion is that they destroyed any sort of evidence that they could get their hands on. 

But the main reason I believe that Christ was a real person is His legacy.  You have nearly of a third of the world's population claiming themselves Christian.  To be basing an entire religion off of a completely fictitious character seems ridiculous to me.

Actually, a scribe, a fairly high ranking one, included Jesus in his writing during his life.

So, Val, you are willing to look at the huge influence Jesus has had, and completely discount his existence. The presence of the second (I believe) largest religion in the world was founded by a myth? The "Before Christ" tag that was used for so many years, by people living far closer to his time than we, was based off someone who never existed? That, like Sev said, most major religions, as well as many prominent historians, acknowledge that he existed in some capacity? That over a third to half of the world is wrong in the belief that he lived? Because between Christians and Muslims, as well as many Jews and atheists, are wrong? You willing to take that step?

Science tries to prove everything, but actually proves nothing. They ask you to accept that nothing because everything, that that everything dispersed and created stars and planets on its own accord, and then life formed from nothing, eventually becoming something so complicated that even we don't understand half of how or why our own body works? From nothing?

By hard credible evidence, do you mean a photo? A painting of him during his life? What kind of credible historian do you mean? I don't think we even know of many credible historians that lived during his life. And while many people deny he was God, most would say he existed. The rest are fooling themselves if they refuse to see the massive legacy he left.

What Religions deny he existed? Not Jews. Not Muslims, for sure.

And about the wars, you think those were fought in the name of an imaginary man? Face it, no man has ever impacted the war in the war Christ Did. That much is plain to see. No one who didn't exist could have this much impact on the world.

Please do some research on a Religon and their views before you make such brash comments.

We do go to hell if we dont belive in him and do bad things and dont pray to him.

Have you ever heard of a thing called sin?  Im not going to go into detail on it, as you can easily do some research and find out for yourself.  But when you do bad things you are sinning, and when you sin you go to hell.

BUT, god acknowledges that Humans are not perfect, and thus he gives forgiveness for those who ask for it.

So, give me you evidence on why the Universe and Earth is so perfect, why our DNA and Brains evolved so perfect, why animals and monkeys stay so un-devolped and inferior to Humans.  Why are we Humans so superior that we can undertsand everything in the Universe and then mainpulate it?

Science is NOT at war with the Bible! We don't take man's idea's and try to make them fit in the Bible, we do just the opposite! We take the Bible and try to see how man's ideas can fit in.

Like i said already, citing his legacy proves NOTHING. The fact that so many ppl follow him proves NOTHING. At one time, everyone thought the world was flat, did that make it true? No, they were wrong and they realized it when scientists came and showed them they were wrong. And what 'high ranking scribe' are you talking about? Because that doesnt seem too credible.

Jesus's life is a plagerization of the Egyption sun god Horus. Christianity is built upon a lie. The story of the Great Flood is taken from the Epic of Gilgamesh, the story of Moses is taken DIRECTLY from Sargon of Acah, from around 2250 B.C. The whole story of a god bestowing laws to a prophet upon a mountain is extremely old. India has MANOU as the lawgiver, Crete has MINOS, and Egypt has MISES. MANOU, MINOS, MISES, MOSES. Christianity is a hybrid of other religions.

Research? I dont need to do research. I've been taking bible and religion classes for 14 years. I went to a Catholic middle school/elementary and a high school run by Jesuit priests. I am WELL schooled in the life of Jesus and the workings of God. Those are not 'brash comments', those are FACT. The first commandment says we MUST believe and worship only God, and if we do not we are sinning and if we sin we go to hell. So, either we believe in God or we burn for all eternity....Its one big threat.

Pliny the Younger cannot be cited as a historian talking about Jesus. The only times he mentions Jesus its only a few lines, and he uses the word CHRIST. Which is a TITLE, not a NAME. It means 'Annointed One'.

PLEASE, before any of you post anything more, watch this video. When you watch it, fast Forward to 30:00 to get to the part about what we are all talking about. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197

You use the Law-giver names to prove your point. But unfortunately for you, I've been using those names to prove my point before you! Has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe the others are the copies? That would make a ton more sense! And even HAWAII has a great flood legend. In fact there are hundreds of flood legends all over the earth! Has it ever occurred to you that maybe they are all about the same Biblical flood? It makes sense that fathers would pass down these things to they're children. Oh yeah, pretty much everything in that link applies to this. NO ONE EVER THINKS THAT MAYBE, JUST MAYBE ALL THOSE LEGENDS AND STORIES WERE COPIED OFF THE BIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And how dare you say that "Christianity is built on a lie"? Just because you don't happen to agree with someone else's belief, you don't start slamming it like that!

Yes the first commandment does say that to worship any other god than God is a sin. however, God will ALWAYS forgive us our sins! Otherwise everyone would go to hell. No one has never sinned!

Seco, calm down. We don't need to be trying to convert everyone here. In fact, faith is choice.
Val, the first commandment is different. I don't remember it exactly, but that's not it. I believe that God gave us the right to choose, so don't be trying to force your beliefs on others Seco.

Firstly, your last 3 sentences there dont even make sense.

Secondly, how can other legends copy from the bible if they happened BEFORE THE BIBLE WAS EVEN WRITTEN? Are you even thinking about what youre saying here?

Either you bow down and worship God, or you are punished.

Not trying to make you upset Val (sorry if I am), but I interpret it as not worshiping other Gods, and besides, that is the Old Testament. The New Testament states that faith is choice. (I think) I'll look it up.

Val, you are saying that the oldest surviving culture from the Middle East has their entire history wrong, and that the story of a culture long dead is right? You say the Flood is wrong, what makes the Epic of Gilgamesh right?

Look at things objectively, Val. Several billion people believe Jesus existed in some form, whether God or not. I've asked you, and you deliberately ignored it, but are you really saying that everyone of them is wrong? That the man never existed? That a religion people have willingly died for, faced great persecution for, is based off of a Egyptian myth? That someone made the whole thing up, and convinced everyone then it was true? I'm pretty sure everyone in Israel knew who Jesus was--they wouldn't follow someone they hadn't even heard about. He had to exist, or Christianity would have never started.

Think about it--would people follow after someone they had never heard of, who "didn't exist", who's teachings contradicted their own religion and had, "supposedly", gotten him killed? That the "disciples" told them that, and they swallowed it? Thats like me telling you theres a incredibly smart scientist with a revolutionary idea that condradicts all current science, and has been the source of heated debate for the last few years in America (or the world), that what he said was true, and that he died for his beliefs. You've never heard of him, and in the end, everyone hated him, but you should join his followers? Does that make ANY sense?

Don't remember the scribes name, but he worked for Herod.

Um how does it insult a people? Hobbit is what they're scientifically classified as, and they're extinct anyway (man has evolved from homo floresiensis to homo sapien). And you can't determine that something is a "missing link" without doing research, which is how, oh, EVERYTHING, is determined.

And Hawaii's flood legends are caused by their Gods, not the Christian God. And there were plenty of records of guys named Jesus that fit the time period which Jesus, the Savior of the Jews, was thought to exist. Multiple. People. With the same name.

That does not make the Epic of Gilgamesh right, it just shows how Christianity is a hybrid of other religions.

I havent deliberately ignored anything. YES I AM SAYING THOSE PEOPLE WERE WRONG AND JESUS CHRIST DID NOT EXIST. Need me to say it again? I answer your question with every single sentence. People have died for it, been persecuted for it, and yet the religion was manufactured.

You are saying he had to have existed because people wouldnt believe in a faith started by a man who didnt exist. In fact, they would. People are ignorant. It is explained much more thoroughly in the video i linked, which you probably deliberately ignored or you would not be asking those questions you keep asking. In fact, all youve been doing is asking questions and asnwering none of mine.

Your logic is extremely flawed. Lets look at your point of view. Christ is the son of God correct? Meaning all other prophets were wrong and their stories are lies. So all those other religions who follow other gods and prophets are lies according to you. There is an example of people following a religion made by someone who never existed.

I say again PLEASE watch the video i linked. It answers EVERY SINGLE question you continually ask me. It is quite long, so skip ahead to 30:00 if you like.

My point was, to follow Christ was to go against everything you were told to believe. What Jesus claimed to be was the highest level of heresy. And he would have been known all throughout Israel--no Jew would believe in a heretic if he didn't exist.

Israel is the oldest surviving culture in existence, and their history hasn't changed significantly in thousands of years. The Torah, and by extension, most of the Old Testament, is likely the most accurate historical document in existence, because of its significance as a Holy Book. Not to mention, it portrays Israel poorly many times--they haven't changed it to show their best side. I'm going to trust that more than the Epic of Gilgamesh.

How is it that every nation that began in a similar time period as Israel was has disappeared, whether destroyed or unrecognizable in its current form. Yet Israel, neither the largest, strongest, or wealthiest of nations, still survive, largely unchanged. They have been beaten down, scattered to the corners of the earth, exiled from their homes, and nations have tried to destroy them throughout history--yet they survive and thrive. They are surrounded by countries that despise them. How are they possibly existing, if God wasn't protecting them. Answer that. No culture has survived so much for so long.

My final question is this--what do you have against the Bible? You decry its accuracy at every turn. Why?

I can see this argument is going no where. I hold to my beliefs. I know whats true. I look at the world, at its complexity, and know that its simply impossible for our world to be chance. Only God could create such life, and sustain it. Does Evolution not promote the law of survival of the fittest? Yet the lame and weak survive--how do you reconcile that? Wouldn't randomly evolved life that had always relied on survival of the fittest change?

Humanity, without a purpose, would be chaos. If life followed Evolution to the letter, the weak would be culled, and cultures would fall, or never rise at all.

It insults people just like it insults any other race. Wait...extinct? The Pygmies are very alive! They are a tribe of short people who live in the Congo. And of course Hawaii would use they're own god! A perfect example of how the story changed over the generations.

And yes, I watched the video, but it didn't really answer all of these questions. And yes, people died for it. All the Disciples except two were executed for they're faith. But seriously, who would die for something that is not real? I live in the "Show Me" state. I something isn't proved to me, I don't believe it. Do you think I am ready to die for something I just "have faith" in? I've seen more than you think, friend.

And according to the dates that video said, the Bible stuff happened(and was recorded) before most of it. The Christians have created a very likely time line.

@Val: If people are so ignorant, wouldn't that make theories invalid? People would believe everything told to them? People would quit believing what they truly believe for something else? Or are you claiming that only those who have faith in Christianity are the ones who are ignorant?
Once more, I am not trying to make you angry.

No, the specific species mentioned in that article was extinct. Pygmies still technically exist, but not their previous forms. And Hawaii have their own gods, because they never came into contact with the European world. No story was ever told to them from ever-loving Christians.

Also, who wouldn't die for something that isn't real? Look at the idiots who created Scientology. Even though it's just a scam to get your money, people actually believe that shit. They think that the science fiction stories that L. Ron Hubbard wrote were the real versions of how life came to be. Not to mention Hubbard himself said "Make money. Make more money. Make others produce so as to make money . . . However you get them in or why, just do it." and "Make sure that lots of bodies move through the shop."