Topic: Is evolution real? Is evolution true?

Hello everyone,           evolution was mentioned in another post the other day, so i decided to create a new thread for it, since i'm interrested in seeing what other people think on the subject. This thread is wide open for any ideas about how we all got here and how life itself began. The discussion of evolutionary theory up next to the theory of creation will give us a better idea about how they compare up.
Feel free to share any ideas, again, and i look forward to hearing what you guys think.

                To start things off...i'll say that i have my doubts with the evolutionary's beleif in us evolving from monkeys and also the universe begginning as a large bang. As far as the monkeys go...why aren't we seeing monkeys slowly "evolving" into humans today...if that theory is correct, we should be still seeing this happen today, right? And my doubts in the "Big Bang" theory come from the amazing amount of complexity when you study the earth, stars, sun, moon, and really the entire universe! Even to think that some random chance explosion happened and somehow created the delicate balance throughout nature.  For example...the earth is just *EXACTLY* the right distance from the sun so that it can support life. If were any amount further away from the sun...the earth would be extremely cold an could not support most life...if it were any closer to the sun, we would all burn up. And then to say that random mutations over millions of years could have produced something good, and intelligent like us humans....absurd...

                                                                        {MW} MS9

I do think that humans looked exactly same an the dawn of the world, but I do not belive in evolution. I do think the theory of evolution is immoral, sacreligious, blasphamus, and evil.

Are we allowed to debate the scientific theories and beliefs as well? Cause I don't think there would be any constructive agreements if we have to put up with religious interdictions and stuff :(

Anyway: I'm an atheist and to me it's totally natural for species to interact and evolve side by side, sometimes in eachother's pockets (and meals :P) but I'm against certain points in pure Darwinism... Like, saying that killing others that are different is the way to live on? 'the struggle to survive'..... No thanks.

I for one think that there were only a couple people on Earth, then they repopulated from Africa and spread to Islam(or whatever) to were the Bible started. I hope I dont get in trouble for mentioning the Bible on the boards. :/

                                                    {MW} TW :cool:

from Africa and then to the Middle East ("Islam" is a religion ;)), and the Bible start with the genesis, and basically that's where God created Earth, so what you said doesnt make any sense :P I guess you meant the place where Jesus was born?... that's the Middle East too :)

Well it looks like there's 2 people who are Christians here..... :/

If you can get banned for mentioing the Holy Bible, then I want nothing to do with this site.

yeah, well I dont believe alot of things in the Bible. I'm not THAT christain. I'm going to see the DaVinci Code tommorow

. Well, ya know, I really dont care about religion. Ya just gotta live life by the fullest, and go by your concence. Just be the best person you can be. :) And if you do that, you'll succeed in earthly happiness.:) That.........is what I believe.

                                                                        {MW} TW :cool:

Yes, I agree with you, Spy. Like I always say, "you gotta have life to make life." ;) If there was nothing in the beggining, then how can nothing blow up into the big Boom? :/

                                                                               {MW} TW :cool:

It would be smart to stick to the subject on this one, guys :) Religion is one of the touchiest topics on forums, and we don't want to start fights over that.

For my part: I respect a person's belief if they respect my own views and won't try to make them change. I can't change what's written in the Bible (no one can), but science... that's another thing. It evolves, because people try to perfect their theories about their knowledge of nature. If you want to "believe" in science, I suggest that you document yourself on the questions that trouble you in particular, but asking for someone to develop each point to you until you start thinking that it's the truth?.... I think it would be impossible. If you want to find answers, or to find "the truth", you have to find out on your own ;)

We only believe what we think is best by our own standards. I hope I didn't go too deep in philosophy here :(

the thing is...the worldview you have....or in other words   the way you view the world effects the decitions and beliefs you have in it.

for example:   a christian worldview has Christ at the center...and the Christian beliefs effect every other area in life.  It is impossible to seperate your religous beliefs from your view of the world around you.

                                                       {MW} MS9

I agree with that last statement :| I have a friend... well, had a friend who is a Roman Catholic and whatever we spoke about was going perfectly fine until she told me about her religion. Then everything she told me afterwards (while discussing history, politics, etc) had bad connotations to me, being agnostic but not totally ignorant of christiannism I could deceipher the things she said that could come from a book or from religious dogmas...... Yet again, she's a smart person and always eager to know more and more about everything, always seeking the truth somehow. And then she tells me she's actively religious. Now why did that sound wrong to me? :/ I tried being totally honest with her and tried to talk it over... but we don't chat anymore.

I just don't believe that anybody who really wants to know the truth can stick to 1 answer for the rest of his life and be happy with it. Myself I believe in evolution, in the "Big bang", anti-matter, quantum leaps, infinite dimensions, etc... I like the fact that everything I know now could be different tomorrow. The only thing I'm sure about is that in a couple of centuries we will be very different from now (cybernetics? genetic mutations? hormonal disfunctions?...) :P

hmmm...if we are going to "mutate" soon...we are heading in a bad direction right? because 99.99999999999999% of the time...mutation's bring forth a bad result...rarely ever do they bring out something good...   i wonder,  does this mean we are going to turn into something bad in the next century....

I don't believe in evolution. I heard a theory once.... In the bible, I think it says that to God one day is a thousand years to us (or something like that), and that what's really going on is that when God created the world in seven "days", it was actually 7,000 years. (I think is how that would work out? Maybe I'm wrong and it was a thousand days?) And therefore, evolution people are saying things evolved when really it was only one more day of God's work. Also, if we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys? Why has nothing evolved in the last hundred years or so? Why do humans in the old days look more or less how we look now?

But, I think that this thread'll get locked fast, these sorts of threads don't last long without a fight starting. I almost didn't even click on it at all.

oooops....sorry   i didn't know that...i shouldn't have started it.  oh well...just hope and pray no fights break out...  and i totally agree with the whole monkey thing....if we came from monkeys....why don't we see half monkeys and monkeys changing into humans today....ya know.

                                                                                 {MW} MS9

Well, I remember from science classes in high school that our planet was created 4.5 billion years in the solar system. 1 billion years = 1000 million years ;) The homo sapiens species that evolved from australopithecus (that dates from 2.7 million years ago) has appeared far later.

You see we didn't come from chimpanzees, we evolved from another family of apes that had mutated into what became us, while on another side the chimpanzees, babboons (sp?), gorillas, etc. remained what they were. There are millions of species who did not evolve as fast as we did. Take alligators, sharks, whales for example.

Evolution and mutations happen because of climate, vital needs and biological environments. The Earth turns around the sun the same way that electrons rotate around atom cores. But that doesn't mean that every planet has to turn the same way (Mercury turns the other way around, by the way) and living species don't need to do the same thing at the same time. The universe is a huge chaos, but it's also one whole that sticks together thanks to a force, and that force I just call it.... The Force :P

i say this universe is not chaos....but rather it has soo many simbiotes that work together to creat this perfect universe...

        as far as evolving creatures.....how come we don't intermediate links in archaeological finds today....there is a huge void where the half'monkey species or the half-whatever is...ya know..

                                                            {MW} MS9

Which reminds me a joke......

What do you get with you cross bigfoot with a missing Zelda cartridge?
A missing link.
:D

That "missing link" is about a genetic factor between humans and chimpanzees that didn't collide. Humans have 46 chromosomes in the genome, while chimpanzees have 48... the only explanation to this would be 2 pairs of chromosomes fusionning together. That's where the crazy alien intervention theories kick in :D

People who watched X-Files will say that aliens with far advanced genetic manipulation technologies have played with ape genes 2 billion years ago and created the human genome as we know it, then planted it in a family of apes that bred and spread around, evolving super fast and adapting to all kinds of new climates and environments.

I don't want to accept that as the truth; there's no proof, but no counter-proof either. Besides, it's too easy :P

Yes, like Daenna said, according to evolutionary theory humans and chimpanzees (as well as the other great apes) have a common ancestor, and the line of descendency split into two major branches.  We don't see chimps evolving because evolution happens so slowly (and we're in the system), and also because evolution comes as a response to environmental changes which open up new niches.  Niches are sort of like roles that a creature can play in the ecosystem--living in the trees and eating fruit, for example.  Some of our ancestors took to the trees and became chimps, others lived on the savannah and became humans.

Disclaimer: Although I am an Anthropology major, I believe in a literal, 6-day Biblical creation, which makes going to college really unpleasant.  I just lost my 4.0 for the first time in my entire life because my Darwin professor wanted to make an example of me.  But anyway, that's another story.

You know.... I'd post my opinions, but looking at the "EVOLUTION IS THE ANTICHRIST!!!!" posts..... Yeah I'll keep my mouth shut before I'm flamed.

Aww, don't be intimidated by the scary mobs! I'm curious to know everybody's opinion on evolution, and also want to be reassured that I'm not defending a lost cause :P

To those who don't believe or disagree in evolution theories: what would be so bad about it if they were true?

Are you okay with thinking that we descent from apes?

....That themselves are descending from mice?

...Which would mean that we're all just a bunch of very sophisticated rodents? :)

3, i'm one too, i dont believe in evolution, but thats just my opinion

No, no, no......I believe in evolution, it's just that once they became man, I believe thats when the Bible Started in the Middle East.

                                                                {MW} TW

Well, I believe that MICRO-evolution is true, just not MACRO-evolution. (I only put it in bold to specify :))

Fine, but if I get flammed or banned for this....

Evolution is not theory, its a proven, true process that occurs every day. Evolution is survival of the fittest: adapt and you live, don't and you die. Look at so many crazy animals we have out there: the Mudskipper, a fish that spends a deal of its time OUT of water; the Coelacanth, a fish that adapted and changed very little since the dinosaurs went extinct; a butterfly (or was it a moth?) that lives in Britain that adapted to the pollutants changing the barks of trees from light to dark, and changing with it.

We're just another one of those species that adapted and changed. When you look at our ancestor skeletal and brain wise, they weren't too different from us. And not ALL of them changed: previous near human species lived at the same time our closest realitive came about.

Micro-evolution is proven.  Macro-evolution is more difficult to prove, especially with factors like irreducible complexity involved.  How did complex systems like eyeballs and ears evolve through random mutations?

Even the smallest of Eukariyotic cells are complex. Every creature up from Bacteria is a complex little system. Some are more complex then others. Work your way up on the scale and you can see how every creature is a little more complicated.

I'm aware of how complex cell systems can be, flagellums, cillia, ribosomes, etc.  How does the theory of evolution account for these systems?  It would be impossible to evolve them piece by piece, as the flagellum is made up of thirty-five different proteins assembled in a specific order.  Should the first piece be randomly mutated into place, it would pose no benefit to the lifeform, in fact probably it would be a hindrance and decrease it's chances of propagating the mutation into new cells.

I don't understand why it is so hard for you to link "macro evolution" to micro evolution. My say is whatever changes on the microscopic level, results in a million times bigger changes on a larger scale when it effects DNA, throughout several generations (and inter-breeding with different genomes, gotta include that factor too even if it sounds nasty).

If you search for the answer the serious way, you'd just look into an encyclopedia instead of just randomly arguing on a forum that's not directed specifically to post-grad science majors, and my knownledge isn't that fresh enough to start a general lecture on biology.

I guess I'll go and do that then.
*walks out of room in a huff*

Who said the cells didn't make mistakes? Its not like they're still perfect today, otherwise we wouldn't have genetic cancers, and other genetic disorders. And some of the mutations were for the good. And people ARE still changing. In the 1700's, 6 foot tall George Washington was considered a giant. 300 years later a height of 6 feet is normal for men. Who's to say that in several hundred years that 7 or 8 feet will be normal for men? Or we might stay this same size, no one knows.

Well, the reason it would be bad in to me, if evolution is true, would be that my personal Christian worldview would be falsehood and lies.

Life can not form from non-life...simple fact. Why in the world then, do evolutionists say that a big explosion (which in itself is a destructive force and the only creation it does is creating something bad, not something good) not only created this perfect universe of ordered plannets and earth-the perfect life sustaining plannet, but also created the simplest form of life. Even today, scientist and all of their knowledge *CANNOT* put together protiens and make life....they just can't! It doesn't make sense to me that an explosion which causes negative effect, could create this beautiful world and life on it.....i say, impossible!      only a superior being,(God) could have formed life...

Look at the bacterial flagellum for a min.   since many are at least slightly familier with it. The bacterial flagellum is the most efficient motor mechanism on the universe. It is made up of 40 protein parts, 30 of which are unique to it. According to evolutionist theory, the bacterium flagellum was slowly created over the whatever...millions of years. How can that be if the flagellum cannot funtion without any 1 part of it...much less for a million years without being discarded by natural selection??!?         Scientist came up with a co-option. This was that it could be created if it borrowed parts from another molecular machine. But as i said before, 30 of the 40 parts are unique to it making it an extremely unlikely possibility. The different proteins also have a specific sequence...so you couldn't just throw them all together or collect 1 random piece at a time. Only could be created.

                                                                         {MW} MS9 :)

I totally agree MS9

Nothing would be bad about it at all, except that the Bible wouldn't be perfect, and if the Bible were imperfect then I would have no basis for my faith in God.  Then there would be no purpose to my existence.  I have nothing wrong with the theory except that it is unbiblical, and except for when college professors/students use it to bully me.

BalanceSheet, please, don't ever use that argument again.  My anthropology class showed the "Eye evolution" video over and over again, and then snickered about, "Haha, and that's the argument all those stupid Christians used!  What a bunch of morons!"  They have an answer for everything we can come up with, and although we also have an answer for everything they come up with, our answers are "wrong" because they are "unscientific," and since the evolutionists are in charge of the educational system, they decide who wins the debate.  Seriously, I found out this year that there's no point in standing up for yourself, except that you save yourself the shame of being a coward.  They'll just punish you by ruining your grades.  It is much better to just avoid the topic entirely and never, ever take a class entitled Darwin.

Oh, and evolutionists, please don't take this personally.  I have nothing against you, just against college professors who bully me.

As soon as you tell me what their counter-argument is.  I don't get much exposure to that stuff (yet) and I would like to know how they explain irreducible complexity.

i agree, there is no way anyone can counter the irreducable complexity of everything*** in creation. The eyeball is a complex organ...and a good complex example...yet most of creation is sooo complex that it has the same effect.

                                                       {MW} MS9

Okay, guys, watch the eye video yourself.  This is the same one I've seen countless times (unless the internet version is shorter.)  Seriously, the mere mention of the word "eye" sends evolutionists into laughing fits.  It's quite depressing.  That or maybe I just had an inordinate number of jerks in my class.

Ever thought that the Bible's content was mostly metaphorical and not simple fact-reporting?

I'm not trying to say you'd believe less in God if you'd question the Bible :( I'm just trying to say that changing your point of view is not going to shift your faith or what you believe in.

Belief is a lot about opinion and knowledge. Faith is what you rely on when you doubt yourself... But oh well, I guess you're all thinking I'm being blasphemous now :/

hmmm, i still dont believe in evolution, no matter what people say. But thats just who i am

Alright, not trying to be argumentative, I'm just curious: how is evolution a proven theory?

If you think about it, everything tends to a state of disorder:  Just go to some land that no one takes care of and you'll see what I mean-- trees fallen down, grass and weeds grown up, and so on. If everything tends to a state of disorder, then how can people evolve to become better? Take sickle cell anemia, for example. It has been proven that people who have sickle blood cells have a higher survival rate when battling malaria, therefore supposedly supporting macroevolution. However, sickle cells can block blood flow, resulting in,

   1.  pain episodes
   2. strokes
   3. increased infections
   4. leg ulcers
   5. bone damage
   6. yellow eyes or jaundice
   7. early gallstones
   8. lung blockage
   9. kidney damage and loss of body water in urine
  10. blood blockage in the spleen or liver (sequestration)
  11. eye damage
  12. low red blood cell counts (anemia)
  13. delayed growth

The result is that, even though it "helps" people with malaria, it is more beneficial to a person if they don't have sickle cell anemia.

4!! I am a Christian!! YAY!!!
I think evolution is a load of crap. I mean, just the thought of evolution makes me sick (not really but you get the point, I think)

-Boba Dude

I don't think your blasphemous!
You have an opinion and thats good.

The first part is EXACTLY  how I feel. As to the last part; AK-47s :) .

Let's not let this thread get out of hand guys....please try not to bring up stuff like AK-47 and evolution is a load of crap.....lol   i started this thing just to see how different people who believe in evolution, refute what i beleive in and their oppinions....i think it is only fair to have equal sides and equal oppinions. There is no need to bash somone else's idea...but rather discuss it in an orderly fashion....thanx...   :D          soo......  did those of you who favor evolution read my post on the bacterial flagellum?  jw what you guys thought of that???

                                                                  {MW} MS9

                                                                   {MW} MS9

the way paramecium cells (living creatures, they just have 1 cell) develop is very quick and simple: they just split in two. And they have those flagel-thingies as you can see:

Most cells do in order to move and fix themselves to other cells, that's how they exchange biological material, and also DNA.

And no, you dont just put together proteins to make life. A protein on its own is not life, it's just... a protein and when in natural environement the adequate recipe for living cells is applicated (water, proteins, etc, and energy - heat? lightning?) you might get some primitive form of bacteria. This happens why? because there isn't a spot on Earth where there isnt a physical trace of biological remains. Spores (mushroom), for example. They're everywhere, in all climatic conditions. That's why scientists have focused astrobiology so much lately: the only way to discover the mystery of life is by looking at how it started on other planets.

Of course there was no sign of life on any of the nearby solar planets here, but we'll discover new life forms outside of our system (which in my opinion will happen, one day) on a planet that's similar to our Earth. What is going to freak us out is how alien those beings will be, and totally not what we'd have expected. Why would there be other sentient beings who would look exactly like us? Do you think that's possible?

Man, if there would be OTHER humans out there, people just like us... we wouldn't feel so special anymore, huh? God created us as smart, resourceful, and prolific as any perfect species should be... Why would he give those wonderful assets to others? :P

Astrobiology rocks.

True that. I'm with you 100%. Sickle cell anemia is a Bad Thing.

That said, your argument is that it should be eradicated, right? That if we are evolving it should be going away? I may have misinterpreted you, and if that's the case I apologize immensely, but hear me out here: evolution doesn't work on people.

I'm an anomoly, I guess: I'm a devout Roman Catholic and simultaneously a devout evolutionist. I guess that makes me a Bad Person, but oh well. I can justify it in my mind, so that's good enough for me. I don;t need everyone else's approval.

That was just so you know where I'm coming from. Now for the actual stuff: evolution doesn't work on people. (Refresher course for people who may not know exactly what I'm talking about- please don't think I'm condescending anybody! I just want to make sure that those of us who haven't taken high school biology can follow along here.)
Evolution works on the principle of natural selection: the strongest members of a species survive, and the weak genes are culled by predators and other forms of death. Change comes about because beneficial mutations help the specimen to survive, keeping the changes in the genes to be passed on to the young. This way the changed genes become more prominent in the gene pool and eventually become a species trait to whatever is doing the evolving. It's just logical.

Now, think of people. We control our own environment and set up a society based on protecting everyone. There are no predators to cull out the weakens specimens, because we've isolated outselves in cities. The only things that really kill us off (accidents, diseases and old age) strike indiscriminantly to a person's survival traits. It's not eh survival of the fittest anymore, it's the survival of all. Evolution can;t take place under those conditions.

Example: sickle cell anemia. Say a strain develops that affects...antelopes. The antelopes with the disease are weaker, so they get picked off the easiest by lions without being able to reprodice as effectively as a healthy antelope. The weakness thins out and eventually dies off. With people, there are no lions. We are able to care for the sick, so they stay alive with the disease and keep on having kids. Those kids have kids, and the potential for the disease is carried throughout, even if it isn't actively carried. The gene stays alive as long as people are able to reproduce, so it isn't eliminated as it should be in the animal kingdom.

I probably twisted your point around there; if that's the case, I'm sorry. I'm just a little obsessed with this concept here. I'm writing a book on it now, actually, and it's by far the best thing I've ever written (not that it'll ever be finished, but I like to dream). Just the whole concept excites me. The only time evolution could recommence for people would be if the world plunged into anarchy and we rejoined our place in the animal kingdom.

Disclaimer: In no way do I think that should happen. In no way do I think we should kill off the weakest members of society. I just thought that was an interesting concept to share, and seeing how it related to the concept being discussed I got all excited and wrote this ultra-long piece of boredom that's making your eyes bleed right now. Sorry 'bout that! :D

Well to be honest I'm not sure if you twisted my point or not. :P Anyways, why would evolution just stop? I mean, it's not like it can just "tell" whether or not we need better traits (bad terminology, I know) to help us survive. Asked out of curiosity! :D

The problem is some of those disorders come from early on in human history. So even the recessive genes that create the disease/disorder that haven't popped out of a family in centuries may suddenly appear because two people with the gene mate, but totally didn't know they had the gene. And scientists are working to help get rid of these things. We have the technology to do it right now if the right minds get together. Problem is the research is getting banned.

And why DO people need to belive in something anyways? Won't you be just as happy if you didn't? Religion has only showed me one thing and thats suffering. Seriously, we'd get along a LOT better without it.

Okay, I don't understand what you're saying. :(

What I mean is, evolution isn't a force in itself. It's not some influence that's constantly morphing people intro stronger beings. It's a process, one more logical that actually scientific. The reason I'm saying people stop evolving is because the fittest are not the ones who survive. The addition of society had eliminated the process, because no longer is the gene pool determined by survival, it's become completely random.

If the weak die, the weak genes leave the gene pool. If the strong survive, the strong genes stay in the gene pool. That betters the species. In humanity, both the weak and the strong survive. Both weak and strong genes stay in the gene pool and pretty much counteract each other. No progress is made in the human genome. Can you see what I'm saying? (I'm going to make such a horrible science teacher >_<)