Topic: Karen Traviss...

you said a few interesting things in ur post, and i think ur new so welcome...hope you enjoy.
but i thought the sentence you wrote...
"pretend like the books dont exsist in your world"
i think you hit on something that Lucas has been doing since episode 2. which is why i dont read EU novels anymore. sure i dont like KT depiction of Fett. i used to read every thing w/ Boba in it, but i am sick of the novelists getting the green light to write an origin etc. then, it being totally ignored.
i would bet my starwars figure collection(except the boba fett, never risk the fett man), that the tv show will contradict the boba fett young readers novel series, which i read by the way. 

and dont worry ur cheerios r safe from me :)

that reminds me of one thing--i love how she introduced Boba's love of his father, and how he wants to honor him and live up to him. And she's mentioned the little black book, which i also found interesting.

as for RC, and Fi: i agree all the way. she has made some truly marvelous characters

Aw see I'm more of a Sev/Scorch/Ordo/Mereel=love for me. I really like the treatment KT has given that group. Its better than what others tried.

I am just now reading "Blood lines" and  at 1st glance I like what KT was doing with Fett.... Then I read that Fett takes off his helm in public and eats snacks and he just lets some random girl sit in his cock pit and he takes off his helmet in front of her too?!! No. This is NOT the Fett I know and love. The Fett I know is hard and cold even if he was dieing he would still be this. He would NOT have a breakdown and start walking around without his helmet on and telling random girls about his life story. I don't mind people writing about Fett but KEEP HIS CHARACTER!!
That is what I have to say on this subject.

she's not some random girl, and no one knew who he was. well, she already knew!! she knows his--or rather, Jango's--face. do you know who she is yet?

nope but Boba dosn't know who she is and the way KT make him THINK is out of his character.

at the moment he doesn't---but it makes sense more later on. just finish that part and then come back--it'll make more sense

...ok....

my point is, when you find out who she is, it makes more sense

This should be at the start of the thread but I'll put it here too.

(sorry it took so long for me to post this)  *I wrote this a while ago I am now on the last chapter* "I know she's Fett's granddaughter or maybe other relative, how else do you think she got that Hart of fire jewel or what ever it is. But none of that matters because Fett doesn't know who she is so why would he act any different?"

Knowing what I do now: I see your point about how it makes sense more later on, and I did like it when Han puts on a Mando helm. :P  But as I have said before I think the way KT writes about Fett and what she makes him do reminds me of a little girl playing Barbie: *say in little girl voice* "And now Boba Fett goes and buys a new  robe the robe is black with flowers. After that Boba Fett gets hungry and goes into the bar to get a snack. He then talks to his new friend who has a pretty neckles..." and so on. Can you see how I can get a little upset?

The new friend with a pretty necklace knew who he was, without his helmet. NO ONE knew that. He would want to know how, and might recognize the Heart of Fire he gave Sintas. Haven't read it in probably a year, so i dont' remember it too well. Anyways, she writes him pretty well. Makes him more human, but still boba. And he couldn't go find Taun We with his full armor. He needed to find the info a little less conspicuously. Anyone else read it more recently.

I admit, I liked Fett before Traviss "humanized" him, but this version isn't all bad.  Just different. I still liked it when he was the silent, lethal, and efficient mystery from before, but he still rocks with the new additional stuff Traviss added.  From the blurb of Invincible that I read, she writes Fett better than Denning.  Denning does okay, but makes him a bit too talkative, it seems.

I don't mind KT's Boba ether... BUT I do not think it should be canon. Also Werda, Fett in the book found very classified info on how Jacen Solo killed his daughter easily, I think he could have done the same thing with
Taun We.  I said there were some things I liked about KT's Fett, but thats just what it is KT's Fett not the real one. KT even says in Bloodlines "Fett wouldn't give up, he never had." Hello!??! According to YOU KT he gave up on his wife, and his kid. It is a fun new way to look at Fett But KT just throws out years of Fett history so that she can give Fett a heart. How sweet. I'm not saying that KT's work is all bad, but it should not be canon.

Okay, first it IS canon, nothing can change that. Second Karen Traviss didn't create Sintas and Ailyn Vel (that was Beau Smith for Star Wars Tales 7), nor Sintas' failed marriage to Boba (written about for the first time for the History of Mandalorians by Abel Pena). I really don't see what all the fuss is about, if you don't like the stories then don't read them, if you prefer to think of Boba as he was in the films then just watch the films, or read the two dimensional portrayals in the various comic books. Remember that in order for a character to be written into the pages of a book as anything other then a couple of sentences, you need to know more about that character then you do for a film or comic, you need to get into the characters head, know his or her motivations for doing the things they do. That means the end result is a more rounded character then you see else-where, what's wrong with that? What we are seeing is a complete Boba, a whole person. What you seem to prefer is the Boba that Boba himself presents to the world, just the helmet and armour - his work clothes if you like - perfect for a film, great for a comic or cartoon but hardly riveting reading when you are reading a book about Boba.
What is it with the bee in peoples bonnets about Karen Traviss? Karen has simply joined up the various disjointed and in some cases conflicting tales about Boba and made them work together, filling in the gaps where the story needed it, explaining exactly why Boba killed a superior (again something she didn't create) and writing a story that works very well.
Do people attack George Lucas for filling in the gaps with Vader, and explaining his motivations and history? Or for telling us how the Emperor came to power or (heavens forbid) telling us the Emperors name and home world!!!!! Should we tell the man who created Star Wars that "well you see, I don't like what you did with Luke's mother so I think it shouldn't be canon"? People that don't like the prequels don't watch them, their choice; but they don't tell Lucas that it's "nothing more then a Fan Film". Think about it.

Kandossii, vod! well said. Fett has had so much written about him, that someone needed to do it, and it can't be an easy job. He's had so many different things said about him, from him being a littl green alien to his original name having been Jaster Mereel. So putting it all together is NOT in the least an easy job. Give her a break--she's done a good job with what she's had to do. And he didn't entirely just "give up on his wife" he really didn't have a choice. Of course, he could have tried to find her again, but still.

Also, keep in mind she's writing about a Boba Fett who is 72 years old in the Legacy of the Force series.  The Fett that most of you are talking about is a middle aged Fett, in his prime.  Age and experience changes a person significantly.  Finding out you have about a year or so to live puts a whole new wrench in the works, no matter who you are.  You begin to think of all the unfinished things you still have to complete before the end.  I do agree about the part where he takes off his helmet in front of Mirta before he finds out who she is.  I mean, he did it in front of Dengar, but he had already seen his face when he rescued him from the Dune Sea.  Maybe being around the Mandalorian Culture allowed him to relax just a tad.  I had always wondered if he wore his armor while he was a Journeyman Protector on Concord Dawn.  It wasn't exclusively an all Mandalorian colony, just inhabited by LOTS of Mandalorians.  And Jango's father wasn't wearing armor when the Deathwatch came calling, and he was a Journeyman Protector.  If you've had a chance to read the new book, Revelation, you'll see he's definitely not the pushover you're saying he is.  Definitely the same hard edged Fett, when it comes to combat, and being able to switch off his emotions.  I've also noticed through reading the newer books, that the way Fett acts around the Mandalorians is significantly different from how he acts around non-Mandalorians.  I guess because he's Mandalore now, he's constantly inundated in the culture now, even though he doesn't fit in all too well.  A lot of times, his ethics and sense of honor doesn't coincide with the Mandalorian way.  He really relies heavily on Beviin to help him understand and bridge that gap.  He even asks Beviin, in the book, why he helps him the way he does.  Fett has never been able to trust or rely on anyone for almost 40 some odd years (since being married to Sintas--I think it's safe to assume he trusted her), so he's spent his whole life in that mindset.  Sometimes it's hard to "unlearn what you've learned," so to speak.  Lord knows, I can sympathize.  Doing the same job for the military for 16 years, then switching career fields, it's much the same.  You still have your rank and respect and people still come to you with problems, but with the new job you feel totally out of your element.  In Fett's case, he's still the Fett man.  Everyone knows that.  But now he's Mandalore, and he really doesn't know how to be a Mandalorian, even though he's trying to be a good Mandalore.  A Mandalore his father would be proud of.  Plus, for him his word is his bond.  He gave Fenn Shysha his word, and now he's trying to live up to that, and deal with all the new family issues.  And let's face it.  Fett isn't  a family man.  Even he knows this.  But he does feel responsibility for these people, because he feels they ended up where they did because of him.  So, he's trying to make good with that, and desperately trying to balance the two.  That's why I think he's more in his element during the combat scenes, and when you read it, you also get that sense.  It's like knowing , "Okay, this I know I can do and do it well."  It's almost like his break from everything else that's unfamiliar.  It puts him back in his element, so to speak.  Does that make any sense?

I had a big post (as big as the last couple you (plural) have posted but it didn't post, I left and someone exited it before I got back. So here it is sweet and simple:
I DO like KT's work.
I do not think it should be cannon.
I do see that we can't do anything about it.

Yes Boba did quit. He is the best and the best does not give him self an excuse. Don't you think that if Boba tried hard enough he could have worked it out? He did with the sarlacc and when he was a kid not to mention many many other times.

What the Fuss is all about is that they are cannon! wow.

Yes people DO attack George Lucas for filling in the gaps. Also here is a link to prove it: http://www.bobafett.com/boards/viewtopic.php?pid=62636#p62636 
You just gasped your self, I assume this means you didn't want to know. I have no qualms about what Lucas makes because he's GL, he's the man, the head, ect... not KT she is making Boba into her OWN (this is waht I'm trying MOST to get across) character, NOT the Boba in the movies, NOT the Boba in the old books, NOT the true Boba (But I guess it is now) do you see?

NOTE: I am not mad or upset and Orthar I have the up most respect for you and the others. You are not only a good debater but also fun to debate.

Alo, anything she writes goes through Lucas first. He has to approve what she writes about Boba. If he likes what she wrote and approves it then technically, it is what GL wanted. You may say the Karen is not top dog when it comes to Star Wars and Boba Fett, but if Lucas approves what she writes about Fett and makes it canon then that IS what Lucas wants. And who is the "true Boba"? How can you answer that question? That man is covered in more mystery than most people think. For me, the "true Boba" has to be what GL says it is. Lucas created Boba Fett, it is his right to do what he wants with that character. He doesnt have to listen to us die-hard Fett fans. If he chooses to place Fett's fate in the hands of Karen Traviss and approves what she writes then that IS the true Boba.

In reality, there is really nothing we can do. We can beg and plead, but in the end Lucas will do with Fett whatever he sees fit.

If that is the case, I guess we should go with it.

Lol! No offence taken, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I will admit to enjoying these types of (friendly) arguments.

Good!  The other day I was talking to a girl (who I used to sort of like) and one of my buds said something about demarcates and she said "Do you have a problem with demarcates and I said "oh....ummm...no?".  A lot more happened and we started to debate and in the end I said somethings about demie's as we walked into a Taco Bell she said "I have to use the the ladies room" and thats when it hit me that she took it a little more seriously then me. When she came out she wouldn't let me pay for lunch, I apologized to her if I said something offensive, and now its ok. ANYWHO that just goes to show that people can take thing the wrong way. So thanks for understanding.

And the debate goes on...

When this topic was active, I hadn't read any of the KT novels yet, and therefore had no imput.  I confess I've still only read the first couple of Commando books, and still won't be able to comment on Boba, but as for her style and handling of the Clones and the Jedi I can talk about.  With the recent flare-ups over KT's work and the fact that I and a few new members might have some fresh input on the thread, I thought I'd bring it back.  So here goes..

On first glance I loved and was a little proud of KT's ideas and writing for the Clones.  Proud of myself for her ideas because she went in very similar directions that I did before I knew anything about her writings: Direct control and strong Mandalorian influence by not only Jango, but many Mandalorian instructors, a deep Mandalorian bond/cult within the Clone ranks, and a recognizable military culture from the Clones and the Mandos with traces to modern military style and methods. 

However, my biggest problems with her writing is her over-humanization of generally everybody, and the path she's taken the Mandalorians down. 

By over humanization, I'm refering directly to her handling of the clones and the Jedi in her works. 

For the clones, can we assume that they are normal humans?  We KNOW the Kaminoans played with their minds, altering their natural tendencies.  And, if they were just normal humans, could we expect them to do the job that they do.  KT sees these problems, and addresses them regularly.  Loneliness, battle-fatigue, revolt against authority, and an entire range of issues you'd be forced to deal with if you handling human beings under these circumstances. 

My views on the clones, at least the later Stormtroopers, was that they were mentally deficient by design.  Their leaning abilities and free will would have been sacrificed in order to ensure a pliable fighting force that would obey, no matter what the order.  Traviss, in order to have the lovable yet ultra deadly Commandos that she wants to write about, seems to have thrown this out despite the MOVIE Canon quote that the clones were made more "docile."  I honestly don't see where she has applied this at all to her clones.  I understand that the Commandos would have much less if any of this brain alteration, and especially not the ARCs or the NULLs.  However, she has given a very sweeping personality to all the clones she writes about, and I really don't see where she has applied any of that dampener to the clones or their abilities.

I believe that this is a direct result to her love and compassion for real life military personnel.  I get the distinct feeling from her writings that she's not writing about Republic clones, but real-world members of the armed services.  Her insight is a blessing and a curse on her SW fiction.  It's an immense insight into military procedure, doctrine, and the military mindset, and I believe she's excellent at portraying all of these things.  HOWEVER, it's killing her ability to make them less then complete individuals, which her writing in Triple Zero make very obvious.  I know that her clones are very evoking and powerful characters, but it doesn't strike me as real to the situation.  Maybe that's just me

For the Jedi, again, she makes them too real-world.  Because I've only read about two of her Jedi so far, I'll write it off to a rare instance; but both the Jedi in Triple Zero come across to me as having been through a 9 week Jedi boot-camp rather then having been raised from infancy in the Order.  They don't show any of the characteristics from the Movie canon Jedi I've seen and in my view they're all too open minded to the Clones and their Mando'ade ways.  However, I'll write this one off as simple observations, as all the movie Jedi we HAVE seen were all Elite of the Order; perhaps the argument could be made that the lesser Jedi of the Order were more like this.  I mention it only because they go against my personal notions about the Jedi as a whole.

My deepest issue with KT is her perception of the Mandalorians as a people.  These are a people that during the Republics ancient times had wiped out entire races and tried almost successfully to conquer the entire galaxy.  They'd made their names known for the next 4,000 years only as mercenaries, bountyhunters, and raiders.  As late as 200 BBY they wiped out another entire race sentient species, certainly indicating to me that their ways hadn't changed much over the last 4,000 years.  They have always been characterized as aggressive, warlike, and totally militaristic.       

Yet all that seems to count for little or nothing with Karen.  I've heard the claim that she's using a Celtic base for the Mandalorians, but I again see her using modern military men as her primary influence.  This is a comparison that I strongly do Not think she should make, or at least not in the fashion she's using it for.  Yes, the comparison between the TACTICS and even the Mind-Set of say a US or Royal Marine could be used to great effect for the Mandalorians.  But using the typical modern military man's style of private life for the Mando's is a very bad comparison.  As I stated above, the Mandalorians are certainly NOT the good guys.  They have a direct history of some very dark and evil deeds.  To suddenly say that they are no different then the average modern military man or woman I feel is a bad representation of what we know to be Mandalorian, or is a gross insult of the typical military man today.  I'm sure this isn't KT's intent, but it's what I see when reading about Skirata and the Mandalorians in general from KT's point of view.

There needs to be a point created where the Mandalorians became a more common people that we can relate ourselves and our military to, or she needs stop fantasizing the Mando'ade or the real-world military as something they're not.       

That's my take

I dont think you could have described it better Ralin.

Hey, thanks ner vod.  Glad if I wasn't just rambling along half cocked.  I admit there's a lot of her material that I haven't read yet, so I won't take a firm 'I hate her work' stance; in fact there's a great deal to her writing I love.  I also admit that, as those who I've talked to with much depth about my FanFic know, I created a lot of things about the Mandalorians myself before I'd ever even heard of KT or much of the EU, so I have a biased opinion on the mater just because I tend to like some of my ideas better then her's or others. 

I'm just highlighting some of the things that concern me regarding the places she seems to be headed with her work that I've read so far, and her over-use of personal connections to real-world people for her characters in my opinion.

That is exactly one of my biggest complaints about her is that she makes the Clones into something their not, she takes them and twists them. And you put it so much better than I could have.

Well, I have to say her portrayal of the Clones is probably my favorite part of her work; either them or the INDIVIDUAL Mandos like Skirata and Vau *so far as I've read at least.*  I think she's made the rank and file clones too human, and I think she focuses too much on the injustice of their service and existence, but the Commandos and the Nulls have been portrayed pretty well as far as I'm concerned, as they were supposed to be more human/complete. 

However, again, she doesn't make the distinction between these few and the masses of standard clones who were meant to be less capable.

And most importantly for me, it's the direction she's taking the Mandalorian culture itself

Your concerned that they are being portrayed as less war like or 'soft', Correct?

But wouldent it be kinda boring to write about a bunch of emotionless, cold hearted men running around and killing a bunch of stuff? I'm no writer myself, but to make it an intresting read, the characters need have some motive besides money...Right?

And you must consider that not all humans in the Mando'ade culture are the same, and that they themselves may start to see themselves in a different light, and over time go down the path Karen Traviss is building for them...

Does that make any sense?

Love how she did Vau and Kal, Bevinn's cool. I like how she's done the Mando culture. Love the Nulls and Commandos, and their personality makes sense as they were given more individuality.

Troopers...I don't remember how much she's done them. But I see what you're saying, Ralin. They do have more personality than I'd expect. Not as bad as the Clone Wars, though. Died hair, tatoos, etc? Thats just AWFUL.

I know, I hate that.

maybe the Tatoos...But the hairstyles arnt that big a deal.

Well, yes and no about the reasons for my concern with KT's handling of the Mando'ade.

I have based my conceptions of the Mandalorians from what I've seen thus far from KotOR, and the overviews of their actions from all the source books I've been able to get my hands on.

I'm not concerned at all that they are being given emotions and that there are some Non-cold hearted bastards in their ranks - they're human *generally; sentient beings lets say,* variety happens.  In fact, I have to say that the reports I've heard about Boba and his more human side havn't really been a turn off to me at all.  I've always held the same belief that Boba held onto whatever Mando'ade teachings Jango had taught him, and that Honoring Jango would have been one of his primary motivators in life.  My only concern right now would be the rumors if individual actions that don't sound like Fett at all.

HOWEVER, variety WOULD be limited in the ranks of the Mando'ade imho.  As we all know, Mandalorians are Not a race, they are a culture/mind-set.  If you don't like the way the Mando'ade roll, you're free to bail and Not be one anymore.  That being said, I don't see where the turning point is where the Mando'ade turned from war seeking and *in their own interpretation* Honor boud warriors to 'just normal people' as KT seems to write about them.  Maybe this is a failing on my part and is made clear in the Mandalorian Civil War comics *Open Seasons right?  still need to find that...*   

Yes, your argument makes a great deal of sense, and is the one KT has subscribed herself to it would seem.  I'm just afraid that I can't say I see it the same way based on my observations and preconcieved notions about the Mando'ade.  Hope my argument on the matter is just as clear and makes some sense

you have to understand that the mandalorians went through changes during the mandalorian civil war.

you like the KOTOR mandalorians, and that is fine, they changed and evolved into what is now known as the death watch

the "true" mandalorians now, after mandalore jaster mereel, are more hired mercenaries than bloodthirsty killers
karen is essentially just taking jango's hopes of boba fett becoming jaster's legacy and having him help to shape the fate of the mando'ade in that way, rather than trying to conquer the galaxy

Well, that's what I was saying that I haven't read Open Seasons yet.  However, nothing pains me more then to lay the fate of the Mando'ade on a comic...  I'll have to get my hands on that series and figure out what I think about it

it just explains why jaster changed the whole mentality of the mandalorians of this new era
the old ways are gone because he realized that theyll never accomplish anything trying to take over the galaxy

And remember, that the Mandalorians are now (in the Legacy era, I mean) trying to rebuild their homeworld after the Vong, and with that might come some changes to their society--that, I think, is what KT is expanding on.

Open Seasons is a great comic series, and gives a lot of insight to Jango's past.

she turns everybody into fluffy hobbits in armour.oooing over baby waby and bleating about their family.she did not invent fetts family but she did go overboard about his emotional involvment.her fett is so different from jesters hes a totally different person.im writing some fanfics about reall hard case mando mercinaries who dont have families and dont want any either.too long to be put in the creative section here.

ill have to read the mando civil war comic.ive never heard of it and wondered who all these deathwatch people are.culturally they remind me the most of the spartans.in true colours the kamino scientist said something interesting.that the mandalorians practice genetic manipulation upon themselves by selective breeding.they are very much connected by blood relations but also they adopt alot and bring in people who have the right stuff.they seem to have changed a lot since the glory days of their alliance with the sith.there must be some mandalorians who dont go out shooting people and just have jobs in keldabe.in reall life every military orginisation has a dark past.they are there to do what politicians tell them to do.so if they get told to kill everybody in a village any army would obey the order and has done.

if mandalorians didnt have families, then theyd have no one to defend their planet and culture in the next generation
sure, some may not want children, doesn't mean they wouldnt have any if the situation arose where they had to adopt one of their fellow vode's children if they died

i hate families.

I truly hope that sentiment does not extent to your own!
I think that might be taking things a bit too far but I tend to have a similar dislike for the over elaboration of the Mando culture and the key role that a once minor character has come to play in it and the rest of the galaxy.

One of the things that bugs me about Traviss' work is her heavy british "tone of voice" that pervades her novels. Nothing against the Brits or the way they speak it's just that at times characters say things that I can't really hear them saying if the story were part of the six films.

Does anyone else know what I am talking about here? There are just certain turns of phrase that no one in the films did or would have used.   However, this criticism extends to a lot of the novels, especially the main characters and the way they are handled by different authors.  I know these characters are older and growing and evolving but some of them are becoming so bland that they are not even interesting to read anymore.

Anyway, personally I have the hardest time getting through Traviss' books than any other SW author, such as T. Denning's or K.J. Anderson's.

not a very mandalorian statement

Yeah I agree. Especially since that is what the BFFC is for me in many ways.

I like her for the most part, 'cause I have enjoyed reading her RC novels... but... isn't it true that prior to writing Hard Contact she had NO prior knowledge of Star Wars whatsoever? Like, she wasn't even a fan?

That just sorta bothers me... and how much power she has over the Mandalorians and Boba Fett's fate is just sort of unnerving...

ummm...wow.

does someone think he was spontaneously spawned from super-tough bad@$$ inducing primordial ooze?

jeez...

Yeah, what he said!

ya but they wanted it to be that way
they wanted those books to be more squad-military based

I thought KT was brilliant in her portrayal of the RC's. The fact that she had experience with the military herself helped a lot...

At least least I THINK i remember hearing something about her having  experience with the military ...

anyway...

she didnt

but she did her homework
from an interview i did with ray ramirez:

more here:
http://bobafett.com/news/spotlight/ram-zerimar/

She served in the Territorial Army and the Royal Naval Auxiliary Service in Great Britain.  But she also was a journalist and defense correspondent, so she's had alot of other experience with the military outside of that.  Plus, like RealMcCoy posted above, she's got a lot of military friends that help her out with some of the more technical aspects, which is really cool.  I think that's why a lot of military like her books, because we're used  to using acronyms and slang like that all the time.  Plus, the RC books just read like something a military person nowadays experiences with their comrades and it has that mindset about it.  So, it's very good reading for us, you know?  I would imagine even more so, if you're in the Marines or Army.

Exactly my point, thanx Sadriel.

In conclusion...KT rocks!