Topic: The Whales are going to LOSE

Just heard that japan has another [inland ] Country for it's vote,,must mean a lot of Money for
Japan !!!
Prehaps if they saw this TV show I saw years ago before the cry came for Save the Whale became vogue
It show this huge eye and I commented  ''It looks like it's in pain and terror'' then it due back and
showed a Whale been haulted up this Ramp by hooks for slaughter I have never forgottened that scene
and everytime it comes up on the news about stopping Whaling  I just wish they would show that scene
   Bats
ps
Save the Whales ..collect the whole SET

ummmmm...
Whales are cool and all but there are many many more people who need help and I have to say that I think we should be helping the people as well, lots of these "Save the whales" people have put a lot of the whale hunters out of a job who are only are doing is what there family and traditions have tought them.
There ARE some who are big bad corporations but they also help give jobs, so if you are going to stop the "Evil" whale hunters you should also find a way to give them new jobs.

It's not that I don't like whales it's just that there are people who need are help just as much.

We have the resources and intelligence to save ourselves. Whales on the other hand, although they are super smart, can't save themselves. We're destroying the environment and overhunting causing endangered, even extinction of species. (Like the Right whale. It's slow, so it's a easy target. Therefore making it easy prey.) So, it falls upon us to protect and save them.

Besides, Whaling is a pointless job in this day and age. Early whalers hunted them for their oils, baleen, and bones which they used in lamps, perfumes, soaps, fertilizer ect. Nowadays, we have electricity and man made materials, so therefore we don't need whale oils and don't need to hunt them. Also, when whalers hunt all the whales to extinction, they'll be out of a job, so either way they lose. They need to expand their skills so when they do lose their job, they can easily find another one.

ahhh I love a good debate.

"We have the resources and intelligence to save ourselves."

first off we IN THE USA  have the resources to save ourselves.

...Whales on the other hand, although they are super smart, can't save themselves. "

(I don't know about the "super smart" part) But I agee "with great power comes great..." well you know, it's our jobs to help preserve other living creatures when ever we can, But what I'm saying is don't forget that the wahlers are living creatures too.

"Besides, Whaling is a pointless job in this day and age. Early whalers hunted them for their oils, baleen, and bones which they used in lamps, perfumes, soaps, fertilizer ect. Nowadays, we have electricity and man made materials, so therefore we don't need whale oils and don't need to hunt them. They need to expand their skills so when they do lose their job, they can easily find another one"

Ok it might not be as" poitless" job as it seems, you see in the old days the whalers needed those things to surive
you say that now'n days we have electricity but you still have to pay the electricity bill and not everyone have electricity I've been to many many counties where most parts have no electricity or running water for that matter
but even so you still need money to surive.

"They need to expand their skills so when they do lose their job, they can easily find another one"

This IS there skill it's what they've done for loger then the USA has been a country! What I'm saying is how would you feel if some one just walked up to you and said "your job is now pointless go and learn something new to do with your life (even if this is what you've been doing your who life and you don't know how to do anything else or can even read in your own language)" for a example: lets say you're a  computer programer and one day some someone from North Korea makes an AI progame that can do what you do in half the time and you only have to have one computer running to do it (therefore saving electricity and resorce's witch means it would help the environment) and so you lose your job and you are told that you need to " expand your skills so when you (computer programers) lose your job, you can easily find another one." but wait, all the things that you work in and have skills in have been replaced so you would have to start from scatch and get a new degee.
(btw most of these people can't read and can't aford to go to school.) Also it would cause a depression the goverment would be in big trouble if something like that happend.

Do you see what I am saying? Yes we need to help the whales but we also need to consider the people who are affected too.

This (the whole thing that you and I just sayed) is why I don't agee with evolution, Darwin's "survival of the fittest" becuase if that is true than it is ok to go and hunt whales (and anything else we want) as long as we get on top.
once again, don't get me wrong I love whales (how do you think I know all of this?) but people need help just as much. What I'm saying is that we need to help all those around us and not be pickie because one is cute and the other is smelly.

Reminds me of a certain industrial revolution in the 1800's.  A lot of problems arose when that happened.

I personally hate whaling. It is disgusting and barbaric and should never be allowed. The way in which they suffer when they are slaughtered is not acceptable.

I know that the people that do this need jobs but there are other ways and there should be an alternative found for them.

Sadly though Alo trades do come to an end and the people that did those must adapt with the changes. There must be help available so that they can do that. Changes in trades can happen for lots of reasons. It has reminded me of the changes in the mining industry in the UK in the 80’s (I do not really remember much about it but there has been a few programmes about it) I will try another link as the last one I posted had a problem with it. It is a link to Wikipedia if you want to read about what happened to the miners. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_miners%27_strike_%281984%E2%80%931985%29

I am sorry but I will never see a way of justifying whaling.

ALO !! Bats can see your point ,,but Whaling has been out  for a long time,,and the ones who depend on this
I can understand,,,but why now ! the need isn't now ..but I do when I walk on the Beach I look for
Whale Vomit LOL!!!, and those Save the Whale did give it a BAD namw
I was down at Trail-Bay  Look-Out at a King Tide and looked down and saw this Whale watching me,,he
flipped his flipper and turned over and went back at looking at me,,by then there was a crowd and he
showed off more we all clapped ,,then these Drongos below started throwning stones so he went off,
BOY!! you can image the abuse they got ..always someone has to spoil things.
   Bats

It's not that we should save these whales because they are too helpless, it is our responsibility to save them because it's our fault. These whales are in trouble because of us, not because of their own mistakes or misgivings.

And Whaling is the solution to no running water? And there are MANY other things you can use other than whale blubber.

Yes we should consider the people who are whaling, but as has been stated, this stuff has happened before. The situation you described has happened many times to people during technological revolutions. Its harsh, but it happens, and these people are not going to be completely useless. Most whalers have a skill in fishing or shrimping as well as whaling. (Also, maybe try some grammar checks on you work...)

Evolution does not say "Those who are on top can do whatever they want", It is "Survival of the fittest". If we are as smart and fit as we think we are, we will be intelligent enough to save the enviroment that we destroyed in the first place. I am NOT a tree hugger or a big environmental activist, but I have the commen sense to realize that we have destroyed this planet that spawned us. Damn us.

Hey First time here.
My brother "Alo Fett" asked me to come and aid him in explaning his point of veiw.  Now I'm not as nice as my brother and I enjoy "tweaking" people, so this might get ugly.  That and I'm grilling burgers right now and can't take the time to be civil or to do properly correct spelling and quote formats.

"It's not that we should save these whales because they are too helpless, it is our responsibility to save them because it's our fault. These whales are in trouble because of us, not because of their own mistakes or misgivings"
True.  My brother thinks that whaling is horrible and should be stopped.  He also thinks that it is our responsibility to save them.  He just thinks that we should make sure that the whalers have other jobs and traning first.  Save the whales, just don't screw the people while your at it.

"And Whaling is the solution to no running water? And there are MANY other things you can use other than whale blubber"
My brother is not saying that whaling is the answer to the worlds problems or that we need whaling to survive.  What he saying is that people need money to survive, and that to just outright ban whaling is basicly sentencing them to death.

"Yes we should consider the people who are whaling, but as has been stated, this stuff has happened before. The situation you described has happened many times to people during technological revolutions. Its harsh, but it happens, and these people are not going to be completely useless. Most whalers have a skill in fishing or shrimping as well as whaling. (Also, maybe try some grammar checks on you work...)"
If you're going to wail on someone for lousy grammer, pick on bats.  I can't even tell what he's trying to say...
The difference between your post and Devil Girl's (great post by the way) is that she said that "There must be help available so that they can do that." and thinks about the people as well as the whales vs you who basically be summed up as saying "Shit happens, so save the whales".  And have you never heard the song "The Downeaster "Alexa"" by Billy Joel?  It's hard to get a job fishing, especially in a place like Japan, where they are currently overfishing.  Oh whoops. Sorry.  I geuss your post says "Shit happens, so save the whales and screw the fish".

"Evolution does not say "Those who are on top can do whatever they want", It is "Survival of the fittest". If we are as smart and fit as we think we are, we will be intelligent enough to save the enviroment that we destroyed in the first place. I am NOT a tree hugger or a big environmental activist, but I have the commen sense to realize that we have destroyed this planet that spawned us. Damn us"
What do you think "Survival of the fittest" means?  It means that if you're evolved you get to do as you please at the expense of those who faild to evolve.  That's what evolutionary theroy is.  If we are smart, and evolution is correct, we will alter the enviroment so as to best suit our needs for survival.  If it means killing whales so as to rub out compition, so be it.  We killed off the Dodos and nobody got hurt.  Heck, we've destoyed more critters than the last four Ice Ages.  If the whales were ment to survive, they'd evolve a way to survive, such as evolving toxic blubber, or by being so damn pathetic that people will kill themselves rather than watch them suffer.  If we destoyed our planet, people will go the way of the dinosaur and some other way animal will become the dominate species, albit one that can live in toxic sludge.  So in conclution, go damn yourself.

Okay, I see your and your brother's point, but that last part you said, about the "Survival of the Fittest" really didn't make much sense. That would mean, since we're the "top" species, we should kill off everything else? I don't see that as "Survival of the fittest," I see that as mindless descruction.  I mean, the thing you mentioned about the Dodo being killed off and no one getting hurt, that could've been the start of something bigger, like the problems we're having now with the environment.

Another thing about the whales evolving. It takes thousands, even millions of years to evolve, so how can they evolve anything if we kill them off faster than they can breed?

"Another thing about the whales evolving. It takes thousands, even millions of years to evolve, so how can they evolve anything if we kill them off faster than they can breed?"

The earth is only 10,000 years old or less this has been proven just recently. so if they could evolve they would have to do it way way faster then.

"I don't see that as "Survival of the fittest," I see that as mindless descruction."

It's not that you WOULD kill everything it's that it would be ok because what ever makes me go to and stay at the top is ok in the "Survival of the Fittest" theory.
( if you still think this dosn't make much sence then go and read the "Survival of the Fittest theory" again.)
p.s. we are both big science geeks and my bro is going to get a degree in ether archaeology or history.
So "Now you know and knowing is half the battle!"-GIjoe cartoon

Can you give a link to anywhere where it says that please?

That does not seem to make sense though. Humans have had a lot of history but then where would all of the things that happened before we appeared fit in.

Personally I think humans could be in a really good position. We are aware of the damage that we are causing and the consequences of our actions. We could use that do something really good and of course we can learn from our past mistakes.

This sounds really heartless, but there are billions of human beings on this planet. Diesease is something to keep numbers in check yet we keep finding ways to prolong our own lives. Isn't it time we stopped being self serving and helped other species who's numbers are dwindling.

I am NOT saying KILL THE DAMN WHALES!!!!!! what I have been saying is to save the whales AND have a fallback for the people who are there too.
Is that simple enugh for you?

here are some of those links Devil Girl.
http://www.barr-family.com/godsword/old.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4005.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth

p.s I like what Devil Girl is saying she seems to know what she's talkng about.

hmmm, smells like hostility in here...

Yeah...Really...Personally, In my professional, normal, unprofessional opinion, I think evolution is a load of B.S.

(Would you Like me to un-abbreviate that?) And also, what is the point of this topic?

I'm not saying that evolution says we should kill the whales.  I'm just saying that it says that if we do kill the whales than they simply wern't evolved enough to survive.  And if evolution is correct, why should we give other species a chance to catch up with us?  If we wish to survive, we should only encourage the survival of species that are benificial to us.  Now this is NOT my point of view.  I think that man should watch out for the animals, which includes the whales.  I'm just explaining how evolutionary thinking works when taken to task.

First I would like to say that anyone who says "So in conclution, go damn yourself" obviously doesn't have a sense for debate. Just because your idea clashes with mine doesn't mean I'm wrong.

As for the other things you said:
"If we are smart, and evolution is correct, we will alter the enviroment so as to best suit our needs for survival"

No... Actually that is not evolution. Evolution is Adapt to your surrounding to survive. Not change your surroundings to survive. Darwin used birds with different beaks to prove evolution. In each area birds had different beaks as they needed to get to whatever food was there. Long beaks for reaching through holes or strong beaks for breaking nuts.

"Shit happens, so save the whales".
I really don't see how my post can be summed up that way... I realize that DevilGirl already posted on the subject so I shortened it not to repeat her. I was trying to state that these people are not going to just say "Well Whaling is gone i'll go die now." People have the instinct to survive. I agree that things should be put in place to help them, but not everyone can be helped.

Ps. It has not been PROVED that the earth is less than 10,000 years old. It has not yet been accepted as the theory for which science bases itself.

Human history, at least what's recorded, is more likely 10,000 years old, not Earth History. The Earth itself is more than 4 billion years old, hence why I said Evolution takes quite some time. Also, unless a miracle happens, Evolution can't be rushed.

"The Survival of the Fittest" makes sense, I just don't have the same view as you do. Mine's closer to Fetterthanyou's. It was just the way you worded it that got me confused, talking about evolving toxic blubber and all. Sorry about that.

Oh, and kudos for quoting G.I Joe.

Thank you for the links and thank you :)

I have managed to have a quick look though them.

I agree with Thylacine. It is more likely that human history is around 10000 years but earth itself is a lot older than that.

I always think that when there is a debate like this one there is always the potential for heated posts.

So sorry that I didn't put my view in such a bad way  in my Grammer, it's just so sad that the Whales
have to be slaughtered  for what ?? in Aussie our Old Whaling Station is doing great business im Whale
Watching and their Musuem..and they are making a lot of Money
By the way Thyacine !! I'm a Girl,,and I admitt I was a bit upset with your comment as I'm a self-taught
educated,,as my family didn't beleive in school too many Kids,,but I was able to pass my Exams and become a
Nurse ,,raised Three Boys and I;m proud of what I have done with my life,,even taught myself late in life
when I got my Grandson old Computer,,never typed before it was another stepstone for me
As for the Whale Vomit comment it was a bit of Humour ,,to ease the worry about them been Hunted
so there's another one
Land Rights for Gay Whales
   bats

Off topic (sorry!): I didn't say anything about your grammer, It must've been someone else (Not naming names). I wouldn't bring up anyone's grammer, except if it's REALLY bad, which yours isn't.

The "So in conclution, go damn yourself" was in reference to your "Damn us" comment.  I was saying to keep your self loathing to yourself.

Adaptation takes many forms.  Some birds migrate to climates that fill their needs.  I'm positive that would be considerd as adaptation by evolutionary standerds.  So, altering the enviroment to suit your needs is simply the ultimate form of adaptation.  Side effects of migraton: Sore wings (or feet, or fins, depening on species), possibility of getting lost or dieing on the trip, customs, unshakable "migrant" label, boader wars, and large travel expenses.  Side effects of enviroment alteration: Extinction of native species, unfavorable atmospheric conditions, waste accumilation, possible global destruction, and greenpeace.  I'm not here to debunk evolution, the scientests themselves have done that for me and I have no wish to open the can of worms that is the "Creation vs. Evolution" debate.  I'm just stating how natural selection or "survival of the fittest" works.  If you can't adapte fast enough, you die, along with the rest of your species.  Or, as i like to say, "If you can't stand the mutations, then get out of the gene pool"

If you were simply shortening her post, then sorry, but you left out the part of helping those who make their living by whaling.  Yes, there will be those who refuse help, and those that will resist change untill it is forced upon them, but you can change how the change hapens.  It can make the difference between how the Brits ended slavery and how we ended slavery.  Civil War over whaling? Possibly.

Yes, this is true, but it can also be proved that the world isn't "Billions and Billions" of years old.  The two camps have been at it for years.  I personaly think that the earth is over ten thousand years old.  Why? Because while the biblical timeline points out to ten thousand years, that the time from when man was created.  The earth was around before their was light, so it's possible that the earth is older and younger than both camps think.

Well I'm very glad that this post was much more informative and less threatening.
1. I don't self Loathe, "Damn Us" was just a way of saying we've screwed up, which in undeniably true.

2. While I see what you're saying, it is not exactly "Adapting." Adapting would be for us to change for our surroundings. What you are describing is human desire NOT to adapt. We decided to be stubborn and refuse adaptation (Which I am not saying is a bad thing, just completely different)

3. I really don't think theres much more to say

4. I just can't believe that the Earth could be less than a few million years old. 10,000 would mean that humans were on Earth for like 50% of its existence... so where do the Dinosaurs and the beings before them fit in? After all that I've read and from past science classes, my guess is a little less than a billion.

1.You can belive that we've screwed up, I'm perfectly happy with the way the world is.  Except for there being no more unicorns.  I heard they were tasty.

2. Well, it sure has putus on top of the food chain and in the lead of the evolutionary chain, if you belive in that kind of stuff.

3. Yeah, there really isn't.

4.  This is a completely diffrent topic.  If you want to talk about this topic, it is best to probably do it on another form.

1, I also believe that we have screwed up on many occasions and will continue to screw up on many occasions. We are not living in harmony with the environment and are taking much more than we are putting back. If we carry on like what we are now we will destroy all that we enjoy. It might be nice at the moment but it will not be long before it gets very ugly.

2, I do understand what you are saying but I think that the only reason that we are as successful as we are is because of the things that we use (though from my point of view we have gone too far and it has led toward a slightly arrogant attitude towards other animals…which lets not forget it we are) there are plenty of top predators that would easily kill us if we are with out the things that we rely on to protect us and increase our attack abilities. We might have made ourselves the top of the chain but I do not believe that we actually belong there.

1. Well, yeah we make mistakes, we are only human.  But, as humans we are sart enough to correct our mistakes.  It all comes down to determining what is a mistake and what is simply a disagreement.  The Chenobel Nucular incedent? Mistake.  Greenpeace running agound on ta reef? Mistake. Us eating hambugars? Disagreement. Global Warming? That is yet to be seen which it is.  And this is again a whole new subject, and best settled on a different form.

2. Duh.  That's how you get ahead.  Think about it. A single ant isn't much of a threat, but the strength of a colony is enough to make even an elephant run.  A cobra doesn't use's poison to make it a much greater threat than it would be with out it.  We, while not having strength, poison, armour, wings, gills or claws, make it to the top by using our wits to give us the edge.  Man hasn't always had guns, but even then we were still the top dog.  By an evolutionary perspective, we deserve our spot because of our inteligence.  If the other animals want to get ahead, they need to work smarter, not harder.

Well we are making a huge mistake with the environment (which includes the whales as if they go the impact on the environment would be huge) but there seems to be nothing actually being done to correct what is happening. I do not see why we cannot discuss all things on this thread as well. Discussions inevitably move in different directions during its course, it does not mean that they cannot be discussed as well.

Thank you for Duh’ing at me, so nice of you. I am fully aware of that we have used and abused things and that is how we have got ahead. You are right about our intelligence. The human brain has evolved in away that has meant that we have been able to adapt things and use things to our advantage to add strength to us and protect us more. There has to be a point though where there needs to be a balance between getting ahead and going to far. Going to far could end up with our destruction.

I do not think that before man used guns, armour etc we were at the top. We would have been one of the top predators, but I imagine that we still would have had to be more careful than what we can be now. Yes we do deserve our now claimed spot at the top but with that comes a responsibility (especially as of how we got there) I also think that the other animals do get ahead but in their own way and without affecting us.

Though if you want we could start up another thread where we can discuss all things that are not related to whales. I like a good debate, as it is always good seeing different points of view (especially when about emotional subjects such as what has been discussed in this thread)

1st, you deservied that duh. Sorry if it offended you.
2nd, yes, I'm going to have to start a form to answer questions and debate on evolution, natural selection, global warming, and anything else that lets me "tweak" people.  Let the logical fallices and flaming begin!

I do not think I deserved the duh. You can still make a point without using words like that.

I will post on the other thread later when I get the time to reply properly.